Sunday, April 13, 2008

Kissin' Kousins

I'm rewatching the brilliant Arrested Development, and there's this ongoing subplot with the teen son who is infatuated with his lovely freckled cousin, but of can't do anything about it because she is his cousin.

Does anybody know: is inbreeding problems a great risk between first cousins, or is this just one more guilt myth?

I was hoping that Pascal, an MD, would weigh in, and he does not disappoint:

Consanguinity [blood relationship] increases the chance that harmful genes meet, and that recessive traits get expressed. Most genetic diseases are based on recessive genes. If there are any genetic diseases in your family (and usually there's always a few imperfect genes in each of us), like for instance mucoviscidosis or Huntigton's disease, you're taking a significant risk of having children born with it. But genetics are a lottery. It's unpredictable hit-and-miss.

Think of races. Genuine races do not exist in humans, simply because isolated populations that developed a "type" of appearance over the milleniae were never consanguinous, they were always large enough to maintain a genetic diversity (albeit less diversity than the original population from which they stemmed). If you look at Africans, and look beyond the dark skin, large lips and nose, and curly hair, you'll have to admit they have a MASSIVE diversity of facial features. A recent anthropology study measuring specific body, skull and face details in an objective manner found that Africa has by far the greatest diversity in physical traits, when compared to other human populations in Earth. (This tends to support the "out of Africa" theory about the origins of our species, to me there's very little doubt.) Other ethnies/populations diverged once they emigrated from the "mother land" at the dawn of Humankind and lived isolated for thousands of years, divergences probably due both to chance (like slanted eyes in Asians) and some environmental factors (like melanin levels), but as I've once explained on this very blog a good while ago, the significant majority of these differences are LITERALLY skin-deep.

Now back to true races. These are an artificial concept made real by animal breeders. In dogs, cats, cattle, horses, etc... they constantly selected over many generations some traits they wanted, essentially through in-breeding between "blood related" individuals. What you can expect of long-going consanguinity ensues: many genes and traits become exclusive in one lineage.
The positive result is the "qualities" looked for in a race: giving a lot of milk, mellow character towards humans, physical strength and resistance, "pretty" fur, a constant bigger or smaller size than the original species... (Amazing but true, there is VERY little difference between a chihuahua, an afghan greyhound, a saint-bernard and a great dane. One single gene, with its variants, has been proven to determine the size of all dogs.)
The negative result is that, in spite of constant vigilance from the breeders, "the races degenerate". You've all heard about some very sad and specific problems encountered when you buy a puppy with a pedigree, like German Shepherds with hip malformation that cannot walk when they grow up. Breeders are now working hard at "cleaning the races" of a problem that was caused by making races in the first place. (In fact, the term "varieties" would be far more adequate.)

Basically, that's the kind of chance one takes with a consanguinous marriage, at a smaller scale because, as I said, if you weren't involved in the Lebensborn experiment performed by the nazis, and aren't from a very-very-very isolated family community of caricatural rednecks, then there's no "pure lineage", only a statistic similarity in your genomes. In classic incest, brother-sister or parent-child, the genes that both prospective parents have in common amount to 50%. That's a big chance to be taking. (Although, to be fair, Pharaohs did this for generations, and the results were not always catastrophic. But they got lucky, and probably "purged the race" of the most unwanted and embarrassing traits like unsightly deformities, mental retardation, physically incapacitating birth illnesses... Common practice in ancient times.)
Now, between first cousins, how much is the common genes rate? Child-parent: one-half. Parent-sibling aunt/uncle: one-half. Aunt/uncle-child: one-half. So, between first cousins, the identity rate of genes is one-half at the cubic power. That's 1/8, compared to the 1/2 of incest. Only 12.5%.
Still significant. Yet much less reckless, close to reasonable.

My medical opinion, and I believe it meets the current scientific consensus, is that marrying your first cousin (or just having kids!) is unadvised, but not a guaranteed catastrophe by far. Only do it after some very careful thinking.

Also, there is the moral issue, which without making prude lectures I'll sum as follows:
- You wouldn't marry your sibling.
- You wouldn't marry a sibling with whom you've been separated at birth, because that's still incest.
- You wouldn't marry an adoptive sibling whom you've grown up with, becase literally you're like brother and sister, and it would very much FEEL like incest.
So, if you and your cousin grew up quite close, you need to ponder your concept of family. Nature very wisely gave us some caution instincts: it's not a fluke if we generally fall in love with complete strangers.
Or a childhood friend, I reckon that can work too. But adult physical and marital intimacy needs to be safely distant from educational intimacy. A childhood friend IS NOT like a brother or sister, no matter how close you were.
As a proof, how many of you got along with your siblings as harmoniously as you did with your best friend? :-)

BTW, there's another element to ponder when considering Romans: due to the way they made and stored wine, the aristocrats often suffered from chronic lead poisoning, which can cause sadistic dementia. That's what you get from closing your jars of acidic wine with lead seals, and then drinking lots of it.

17 comments:

Alex said...

The legality of first cousin varies, and from the few cases I know, I haven't seen any problems.

How close a cousin you were through life may add or detract from "ick" factor.

Anonymous said...

Inbreeding in general isn't really that much of a problem. That's to say, if you hump your cousin and get her preggo, the kid will quite likely be perfectly normal. However, if your family makes a habit of this, then after a few generations you'll likely notice some undesirable traits, such as stupidity, ugliness or sadistic tendencies. That is if the Romans are anything to go by.

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

Consanguinity increases the chance that harmful genes meet, and that recessive traits get expressed. Most genetic diseases are based on recessive genes. If there are any genetic diseases in your family (and usually there's always a few imperfect genes in each of us), like for instance mucoviscidosis or Huntigton's disease, you're taking a significant risk of having children born with it. But genetics are a lottery. It's unpredictable hit-and-miss.

Think of races. Genuine races do not exist in humans, simply because isolated populations that developed a "type" of appearance over the milleniae were never consanguinous, they were always large enough to maintain a genetic diversity (albeit less diversity than the original population from which they stemmed). If you look at Africans, and look beyond the dark skin, large lips and nose, and curly hair, you'll have to admit they have a MASSIVE diversity of facial features. A recent anthropology study measuring specific body, skull and face details in an objective manner found that Africa has by far the greatest diversity in physical traits, when compared to other human populations in Earth. (This tends to support the "out of Africa" theory about the origins of our species, to me there's very little doubt.) Other ethnies/populations diverged once they emigrated from the "mother land" at the dawn of Humankind and lived isolated for thousands of years, divergences probably due both to chance (like slanted eyes in Asians) and some environmental factors (like melanin levels), but as I've once explained on this very blog a good while ago, the significant majority of these differences are LITERALLY skin-deep.

Now back to true races. These are an artificial concept made real by animal breeders. In dogs, cats, cattle, horses, etc... they constantly selected over many generations some traits they wanted, essentially through in-breeding between "blood related" individuals. What you can expect of long-going consanguinity ensues: many genes and traits become exclusive in one lineage.
The positive result is the "qualities" looked for in a race: giving a lot of milk, mellow character towards humans, physical strength and resistance, "pretty" fur, a constant bigger or smaller size than the original species... (Amazing but true, there is VERY little difference between a chihuahua, an afghan greyhound, a saint-bernard and a great dane. One single gene, with its variants, has been proven to determine the size of all dogs.)
The negative result is that, in spite of constant vigilance from the breeders, "the races degenerate". You've all heard about some very sad and specific problems encountered when you buy a puppy with a pedigree, like German Shepherds with hip malformation that cannot walk when they grow up. Breeders are now working hard at "cleaning the races" of a problem that was caused by making races in the first place. (In fact, the term "varieties" would be far more adequate.)

Basically, that's the kind of chance one takes with a consanguinous marriage, at a smaller scale because, as I said, if you weren't involved in the Lebensborn experiment performed by the nazis, and aren't from a very-very-very isolated family community of caricatural rednecks, then there's no "pure lineage", only a statistic similarity in your genomes. In classic incest, brother-sister or parent-child, the genes that both prospective parents have in common amount to 50%. That's a big chance to be taking. (Although, to be fair, Pharaohs did this for generations, and the results were not always catastrophic. But they got lucky, and probably "purged the race" of the most unwanted and embarrassing traits like unsightly deformities, mental retardation, physically incapacitating birth illnesses... Common practice in ancient times.)
Now, between first cousins, how much is the common genes rate? Child-parent: one-half. Parent-sibling aunt/uncle: one-half. Aunt/uncle-child: one-half. So, between first cousins, the identity rate of genes is one-half at the cubic power. That's 1/8, compared to the 1/2 of incest. Only 12.5%.
Still significant. Yet much less reckless, close to reasonable.

My medical opinion, and I believe it meets the current scientific consensus, is that marrying your first cousin (or just having kids!) is unadvised, but not a guaranteed catastrophe by far. Only do it after some very careful thinking.

Also, there is the moral issue, which without making prude lectures I'll sum as follows:
- You wouldn't marry your sibling.
- You wouldn't marry a sibling with whom you've been separated at birth, because that's still incest.
- You wouldn't marry an adoptive sibling whom you've grown up with, becase literally you're like brother and sister, and it would very much FEEL like incest.
So, if you and your cousin grew up quite close, you need to ponder your concept of family. Nature very wisely gave us some caution instincts: it's not a fluke if we generally fall in love with complete strangers.
Or a childhood friend, I reckon that can work too. But adult physical and marital intimacy needs to be safely distant from educational intimacy. A childhood friend IS NOT like a brother or sister, no matter how close you were.
As a proof, how many of you got along with your siblings as harmoniously as you did with your best friend? :-)

BTW, there's another element to ponder when considering Romans: due to the way they made and stored wine, the aristocrats often suffered from chronic lead poisoning, which can cause sadistic dementia. That's what you get from closing your jars of acidic wine with lead seals, and then drinking lots of it.

Alex said...

Welcome back Pascal :-)

I like how you rephrased my second sentence.

Now I want to see "Close my Eyes" again.

Anonymous said...

My medical opinion, and I believe it meets the current scientific consensus, is that marrying your first cousin (or just having kids!) is unadvised, but not a guaranteed catastrophe by far. Only do it after some very careful thinking.

Even if there were no problems genetically, can you imagine what the other kids will think when they find your parents are cousins?

- You wouldn't marry a sibling with whom you've been separated at birth, because that's still incest.

There is a case in Germany right now about that which will make your skin crawl (or might make you vomit if you've got a sister):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/27/germany.kateconnolly

Anonymous said...

"I've heard of kissing cousins. Is there such a thing as "doin' it cousins?" Kelso (from That 70s Show)

Alex said...

Hmm, another classic omission of facts. His sister was always tried as an adolescent. There is no mention of what age is legally regarded as adolescent in Germany.

He is 30 now, and as far as we know she was under 18 last time they were tried for unlawful sexual behavior. How much younger is she? The youngest kid implies they last had sex 18 months ago, so she is about 10 years younger. That would imply that when the first child was born in 2002 she was 14.

See, we can't see if they both feel that way, or if she was backed into it. A 28yr old can have love and lust for a 14 yr old, but a 14yr is not in a good place to choose wisely.

It's interesting to see that step parents are forbidden in the UK. For reasons of "corrupting a minor" you would want to put a limit on step parent/child liasons, but again as consenting adults, with a cooling off period, what is the issue?

Anonymous said...

You might want to look into it a little more closely before commenting next time. There are numerous articles, some of which have more detail. Here's one but there are more if you care to look:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6424937.stm

Anonymous said...

There are details no one seems to agree on, like when this guy was born - one article says 1976 not 1978. The same article describes the sister as 'slow mentally' as are the first two children.

Brian H.

Alex said...

Nah, I stand by my comment. The paper in question, The Guardian, presents a half story. It seems they are, as any good journalist would, presenting their view.

I had not assumed anything about her age, because I did not know enough facts. I knew how to form a biased opinion based on implied information though, and resisted temptation to do so.

I know if I want a full view of the world I cannot single source my data. However, if I do go for a single source I would hope it would give me enough information to form an opinion. I guess it's just a newspaper, not a scientific journal. What are newspapers anyway? A method for conveying information? A means for spreading propaganda? Or a means of entertaining the masses?

Considering these issues, one would think that, if we can get over the issue of birth control, and freedom of sexual choice, we might have to fight the next two obvious state mandates, Breeding licence (based on genetic viability ) and parenting licence (based on fiscal, physical, psychiatric and criminal investigation).

Anonymous said...

Maybe if I had not put a link to The Guardian I would not have got that reaction. Not knowing the UK papers I have no idea what their reps are.

In fairness no one seems to have a complete picture, not even the BBC, as some dates are not agreed on.

I'm not sure that a scientific journal would tell us anything we don't already know about the genetics side of it.

Although I can see the point about how other people like the disabled or others who will most likely pass on genetic defects are still allowed to have children, but... I don't know...

I do believe you are underestimating 14-year-olds... I knew what I was doing when I was that age. A person that age is as capable of making a rational decision as an adult. Anyway according to this German article she was 16 when they met.

I would say that if she is a little slow that, and the death of her mother, could have more to do with it than her age at the time.

One thing I do not like at all is this talk (in some articles, and blogs discussing the case) of forced sterilization, which takes us back to eugenics.

Alex said...

I lost my faith in newspapers, TV, Radio etc a long time ago.

As for 14. Making a rational decision that will have immediate repercussions is one thing, selecting a life partner? That's another. In general, would you say that 14 year olds make good life style choices? I know of a number of girls who went of the rails around about 13, and returned to normal around 17.

I saw a large number of high school friends in committed relationships which lasted until university, then access to the wider world gave newer choices. I saw a lot of relationships last the 4 years of uni, then fail almost immediately after.

In general I don't think youngsters are ready to set up the rest of their life.

I do believe that at any age, once you are sexually aware, you will identify someone you desire. I also believe you can identify people to love. If you are lucky you find an overlapping subset, and in that subset there is some recipricosity (sp?).

At age 14 you may find the right person, and have the means to support a kid and have the ambition to commit your younger years to family and later years to yourself. At this point, I don't think they need a counselor to chastise them, but an audit would help.

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

Joe,
In some areas of the world -including Lebanon- there's very little social concern about cousins marrying. In many arab countries, following islamic(?) tradition, a cousin who wants to marry a young girl is given priority over a "stranger to the family". Don't know exactly whether it's for preserving the "blood" or the "family possessions". Very clanic mentality...

"There is a case in Germany right now about that which will make your skin crawl (or might make you vomit if you've got a sister)"
Medical studies and internships gave me great control over the vomiting reflex, few things actually succeed in giving me PHYSICAL nausea.
I don't have a sister, but I have a sister-in-law now. And, with apologies to many guests of the Jerry Springer Show, but my brother's wife automatically becomes family, so she's as taboo to me as if we were siblings, and that's how I consider her. Simply, she's a sister who only became so a few years ago, and we've yet to know each other better. :-)
Granted, in case of a widowhood, the possible idea of later marrying one's in-law would feel quite weird to me, but I think most "normal" people would feel the same. Because "becoming family" means something. Samely, I make very little distinction between the siblings of my parents and the people who married them, becoming my aunts and uncles too.

By contrast, and Eolake would probably agree with me considering his stance on individual freedom, I think that no matter how "icky-feeling" it may be, the law overstes its role and boundaries when dealing with the strictly moral aspect of something like incest. Here's what I DO consider as unacceptable that SHOULD be punished by law:
-Abuse. A parent, or older sibling, who takes advantage of that position to force, pressure or persuade a young minor into sex/incest.
-Harming children. Conceiving babies who will bear the stigma of Society, be brought up in a messed-up home, and face the clear risk of serious genetic physical/mental sequelae or shortened life expectancy.
*THIS* is the Law's role. If consenting adults, no matter how inept or twisted, want to have sex together and that sex is incest, that specific part is their free choice. It does feel extremely "icky" to any "sensible citizen", but that's not an excuse. I'll remind you all of recent precedents like homosexuality, inter-racial couples, etc. It's a principle. And I'll stand for it IN SPITE of the fact that such things do disgust me, because I believe that's the civilized attitude for me to have. Germany's neighboring countries seem to agree with me there. (Though I insist on making a distinction between depenalization and legalization. It's no more a crime, but nobody's saying it's okay and you should do it!)
Also, I'd like to remind all the religious folks about the Biblical episode of Lot's daughters. In a nutshell, a double father-daughter incest was deemed forgivable there, even justified, because it was the only means to avoid the family's lineage ending abruptly. Which, in the values system of these days, would have been a MAJOR no-no.

I'm noting that the Stübings knew they were siblings before they "fell in love". I consider this as a typical misconception/perversion of the spontaneous love between siblings. I also consider that people have the constitutional right to fuck up their own lives if they are mentally able adults, and that said fucking-up is not a sufficient criterium for denying them the mentally able status. In the name of individual choice and imprescriptible liberty. You could say I'm stating a religious belief of my own here. :-)
However, the insistence of these people to have children together in the present case, now THAT makes me question their mental ability...

"Mr Stübing has since been sterilised."
Was this forced by a court decision?... After all, he's not a pathological child rapist. There's still an ongoing ethical debate about the forced sterilization of the mentally handicaped under the justification that they're not in able control of their reproduction. It would sound grimly reminiscing, in Germany of all countries. Joe aptly noticed it too.

Alex decrypted...
"Hmm, another classic omission of facts."

I heartily agree. Similar to that sterilization issue, or the details of the childrens' "disabilities". So far, to my knowledge, epilepsy is not considered a genetic defect brought about by consanguinity.
Those journalists, with their sensationalism, really get on my nerves. The Guardian undoubtedly presents a half story.
"If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed." - Mark Twain

"A 28yr old can have love and lust for a 14 yr old, but a 14yr is not in a good place to choose wisely."
Echoing what I said earlier in this comment. It shouldn't be about incest being illegal. If anything, it should be about underage sex, and abusing one's position as guardian/support/authority figure. If there's something to condemn, it has nothing to do with the specific issue of incest, other unquestioned laws already cover all that is needed.

"It's interesting to see that step parents are forbidden in the UK. For reasons of "corrupting a minor" you would want to put a limit on step parent/child liaisons, but again as consenting adults, with a cooling off period, what is the issue?"
Were it not for my legendary modesty, I'd say that great minds think alike. :-)
The complexity of legal arcanes sometimes feels like a deliberate conspiracy from the State to sneakily control the freedoms of citizens.

"What are newspapers anyway? A method for conveying information? A means for spreading propaganda? Or a means of entertaining the masses?"
Answer: B and C. There's a sneaky trap in answer A: the correct phrasing would be "for conveying STATEMENTS AND RAW DATA".

"we might have to fight the next two obvious state mandates, Breeding licence and parenting licence"
Further examples of legal initiative that can be presented as fully justifiable and well-meaning, but which immediately terrify me. We KNOW that such laws would be firstly and mainly used to stifle the liberties of normal people by indignant regimes.
In Lebanon and many arab countries, it doesn't matter whether it is the truth, there's a law that forbids you from reporting and publishing news that "harm the [prestige of/relationships with] a friendly country, or question the authority of the State". Literally phrased. Three guesses why democratic progress is slower than a dead snail that dried up on a desert rock during a heat wave after eating salty snacks...

Joe Dick said with depth...
"Not knowing the UK papers I have no idea what their reps are."

Do you know anybody who has a reliable idea about a newspaper's rep? :-(

"14-year-olds[...] A person that age is as capable of making a rational decision as an adult.
Sometimes. But love/romance/sex is precisely the glass jaw of many teenagers. New influence of hormones, that one hasn't learned to deal with yet, you see.

Alex phrased...
"In general I don't think youngsters are ready to set up the rest of their life."

The way one formulates some views is paramount. "In general" and "think" separate that open-minded statement from a lapidary dogmatig generalization. :-)
I don't know if you're a parent, Alex, but you'd make a good one.
On the other hand, you'd clearly make a lousy politician! ;-P

"At this point, I don't think they need a counselor to chastise them, but an audit would help."
Such an idea clearly has no hope of seeing the light of day in the next 50 years. Too sensible, too anti-politician. :-/

Anonymous said...

Echoing what I said earlier in this comment. It shouldn't be about incest being illegal. If anything, it should be about underage sex, and abusing one's position as guardian/support/authority figure.

I have no idea what the age of consent is in Germany, but in Canada it is currently 14. However, it's not that cut-and-dried. Anyway, it looks like the girl was 16 at the time. I don't know if you would consider that to be a big difference.

Germany should probably do as France did under Napoleon and decriminalize it. And, certainly, the state should never be allowed to decide who can and can't have children.

I suppose it's true that our own personal distaste for it should have nothing to do with it. It is about the same as people who, though they might disagree with it on religious grounds, have said the homosexual should have the right to marry because that is a human rights issue.

Maybe this too will be considered acceptable in the future.

'There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation' - Pierre Trudeau

Alex said...

"A 28yr old can have love and lust for a 14 yr old, but a 14yr is not in a good place to choose wisely."

Hmm, that was not the sentence I composed.

A 28yr old can have love and lust for a 14 yr old, or both but a 14yr is not in a good place to choose wisely, and so he should bring his maturity and wisdom to task and ask if this is the right thing for youngster.

Pascal - I have two boys, who seem to be on the straight and narrow. They are only 10 and 6 at the moment.

Joe - 14 v's 16 v's 18. I know I was not, personally, at the right point until I was about 25. I saw my sister know and be right at 16. What are we to do, have drinking, driving and sex laws based on a maturity test score, or draw a line in the sand and say "This age".

Sexual consent in the US has a "consenting minors" which seems to be a weird one, for once one of the partners crosses 18 it becomes statutory rape until the other is 18 too.

The Driving age in Britain is 17 unless for military or agricultural purposes, where it is younger.

Drinking age in Britain has three levels, depending if it is home 5 (in moderation with parental consent), with meal at restaurant or pub 16 (with licensees consent, beer, wine or cider) or other pub/club 18 - unlimited, (except DUI and drunk and disorderly).

Maybe at age 14 sexual practices should be permitted, but conception ruled against until say 18. This is another one of those grey areas isn't it.

Pascal [P-04referent] said...

That's great to hear about your kids, Alex. Though for some reason I'm not too fond of that expression. Not too straight, not too narrow, or you'll never fully learn to drive properly. ;-)
But let's not reopen the can of worms of rigid education, and "when they swerve, ho boy, they do so big time". I know that's not at all what you meant. :-)

I'm seeing right now it with my brother's little kids. Gray areas there are, but as a rule it's "better to be a little too lenient than a little too rigid", and at times a reasonable straightening has to take place.
Makes for adorable kids. I don't know if they're perfect (doen't this sound horrible to imagine, "perfect little children" like in the old books?), but their imperfection is as heartwarming as can be. They're full of love and joy, so I guess they're "perfect" enough in my book. :-)

I know that at 14 I wasn't quite right, and that at 18 I surely was wise enough. Apologies for being so darn typical in my age development. ;-)

BTW, I think we can never stress enough the vital importance of parents' role. I had some very rigid uncles, aunts, cousins, who often wanted to "fix" my education. Almost traumatizing at times; and some of their children, well, let's just say "ho boy, did they swerve". But me, I didn't. My parents were good parents, I'd dare say "perfect in their imperfection". Symmetrically, when the parents are messed up and too rigid, even if you're their part-time substitute educator, you'll perhaps be able to lighten the harm, but no more. Being a parent is an incredibly important role. Cardinal.

But don't let the feeling of immense responsibility paralyze you. It's a core role, very important in shaping a child's love, but if you're "the right stuff", if you're following your love and sense with an open mind, it pretty soon becomes as evident as breathing itself. 99.9% of the time, the right thing to do hops to mind without even thinking about it! It'll just feel natural to you as a loving parent. And there's much latitude in parenting, ain't no "one perfect unique way" to educate.
"Good parent is as good parent does", to paraphrase Forrest Gump. :-)
I do believe those "Kissin' Kousins" in the news articles discussed are not the only ones responsible for their lack of good judgement.

I might say that a good parent is like a bird parent: working as a team with the mate, caring for the hatchlings every second even before they're born, always there to protect them from the world's dangers when they're vulnerable... and then comes one day, which the parents always knew would come, when their wings are strong enough, their feathers big enough, and you encourage them to hop from the nest and fly on their own. Soon to be excellent parents in their turn.
And this, in spite of their great initial inexperience. There comes a moment when only they can teach themselves life.

Anonymous said...

Belated response - I always wondered what might have happened if I'd gotten closer with my cousin Janice. Last time I saw her the attraction was still there, and we're both over 50!

Good thing she still lives in the American Deep South, and I was raised in California.

Sometimes I still dream of her, though, even if her sister was prettier. *sigh*

True confessions, never told anyone that before!

Lou