Thanks, Eolake. I encourage all civic-minded people, regardless of their nationality, to visit the daylightforum.org and jump into the discussion of how to make America and the world better and safer. A better behaved America makes for a safer world. Thus,we're working on the technical aspect that will make "GregO's Blog" available for debate contributions from people who reside outside the United States.
Greg explained it to me now, It was a special thing they had set up for some reason, where you had be a registered US voter or something. But they removed that.
"A better behaved America makes for a safer world." Not to mention it brings its own rewards to be civil, right? Seen from the Middle-East, I'd say the USA are starting to get back on the right track. Just learn to discern demagogy and religious alibis, and you'll be... well, better off than Lebanon, at least! :-/
P.S.: I once found myself by pure accident (I wanted something entirely unrelated) on a site that managed to know my region of the world and offer me to "meet women in Beirut". So there clearly are ways to pinpoint the region of a user's IP. I don't know if that's legal, but technology can do it.
Regarding ttl's comment: I find it curious that someone would single out and opine on just one or two sentences of a piece that has been heralded by virtually the entire political spectrum; from arch conservatives including generals, to the most liberal news sources. I wonder where ttl's position fits in this spectrum. I welcome ttl to comment at my new Blog. We can use the stimulation of new and opposing ideas!
The European Union officially disagrees. A large part of it's population disagrees.
"... in their right mind ..."
Also I disagree. So I am not in my right mind?
"... that he deserved the ultimate punishment."
Killing someone is not a punishment, at least to that person. This kind of thinking stems from false religious beliefs.
After you die you are no longer part of this reality where the concept of punishment has a meaning. (Regardless of what you believe about life after death.)
Putting Saddam Hussein to death may well have been an "ultimate punishment" to his wife, relatives, friends, etc. But to this person who by now is no longer with us, it is irrelevant.
ttl's statement that he stopped reading after 2 sentences is a bit condescending, to say the least, and certainly not indicative of an intellect so superior that he can assume what the rest of the blog said.
His closing statement that, "Putting Saddam Hussein to death may well have been an "ultimate punishment" to his wife, relatives, friends, etc. But to this person who by now is no longer with us, it is irrelevant." Is both illogical and naive.
The death penalty was relevant only up to the point that it needed to be: i.e. when he was brought to justice and justice was served. Religion has nothing to do with it. The death penalty is the ONLY deterrent to repeat offenders. I sincerly hope none of ttl's family is ever subjected to the horror of crimes like child rape and dismemberment -- knowingly perpertrated by Saddam's henchmen.
Whatever Saddam did (and Lord knows he WAS guilty), I cannot approve of capital punishment. But his fate was not worse than that of all the other Iraqis who also get executed under their country's legislation. Or those in other countries, including the USA... So I'm not shedding any tears specifically on Saddam, just objecting to a principle.
As for the execution in itself, basic decency would've required that it happened in a dignified manner, not the very embarrassing way we witnessed. It's not for Saddam, it's simply for us in general as a superiorly conscious species. We stoop quite low if we accept that ANYBODY be executed as if by a rabid lynch mob, whatever their crimes.
I also agree witth TTL on this : death by hanging and falling down a trap door is instantaneous and painless in itself. You're dead before you know it. Saddam would've been better punished with a lifetime of hard labor, for instance. Death is the ultimate escape, no cop can ever catch you back. I'm almost sour about Pinochet escaping judgement, for instance. Why "almost"? Simply because I believe true justice is not of this world, and where he's gone he can pull no more strings. What I most hope for in this world, is that criminals be neutralized so they can't hurt anyone any more, and if possible that they be denied an undeserved life of comfort and pleasures by going to jail. If possible. Hate and vengeance are not constructive to the soul.
And yet, TTL, I myself would read all before giving in to a first impression. Hey, I keep getting misjudged on first impressions, because I'm not basic enough to be completely figured out in one minute! ;-) Let's leave some room for eventual irony and reasonable doubt, yes?
"The death penalty is the ONLY deterrent to repeat offenders." You know, Greg, I believe we've already debated the death penalty thoroughly on this blog. Not that "you're arriving too late" or anything! :-) Just a quick reminder : risking death proved to not dissuade a lot of criminals before they actually get caught. It's been proven, the preventive effect is ridiculous. Of course, once they are dead, they won't repeat anything. But what about mistrials? You can't release an executed innocent! And, as relatively costly as it may seem in comparison, life imprisonment with no parole in a secure jail is just as efficient to protect society. It also has the benefit of not making killers of "the people". I loathe war precisely because it's a situation where you lose the freedom of NOT killing. Nobody should carry the spiritual burden of taking another human life if there's any reasonable way to make without such an act.
I agree that some horrible crimes make you "wanna kill the SOB". I darn well know I'd be very likely to forget my nice principles if confronted to such a situation. And yet, that doesn't mean that I'd be right just because I'd be blinded by sorrow. I'm just trying to make a point about a precious principle here. Everybody who's ever been forced to kill in self-defense or war will tell you it changes a person for ever. A form of loss of innocence or purity. I don't want to change like that. I've just seen many people die, and this has changed me quite enough for my taste, thank you very much. I am reminded of that very interesting slogan from anti-war or anti-death penalty demonstrators : "Not in my name." I wouldn't want someone I love to become a killer if there's any safe alternative available. Not even for "justice". Humankind today has the virtual capacity to rise above that barbaric attitude, and that makes it a moral duty. Be it only for our self-esteem.
"Actually, the fact that very few countries still have the death sentence proves otherwise." Thank you for the support, Eolake. We clearly are getting there. I live in Lebanon. We still have it here. We also have an anti-death sentence movement. But no change can be expected as long as this regime remains a mere masquerade. :-(
It is equivalent to saying: "Let's kill the guy. That will teach him a lesson." Nicely said. I bet many people will fail to see the irony in this... Though a believer, I don't think there is such a thing as "eternal torment in hell". It would mean that God's mercy somewhere ceases to be infinite? If you're in deserved torments and you repent, you should get parole! How could God be more vindicative than us imperfect humans? I know, some will promise me the eternal flames for doubting the dogma. Well, as long as they don't try to speed up God's sanction and take matters in their own hands, I'm not overly worried. :-) Perfect compassion would always give you a chance to seize by repenting in your heart, whatever you may have done. It's called the miracle of forgiveness, and if I'mnot mistaken it is at the very core of Christian faith. Now, if you can't or won't ever repent, then it would be your own exclusive fault and doing that you got non-ending pain. So it is possible, just not guaranteed to any and everybody. Of course.
13 comments:
I've looked at Greg O's site. His politics are in tune with mine. Thanks for sharing this Eolake.
Thanks, Eolake. I encourage all civic-minded people, regardless of their nationality, to visit the daylightforum.org and jump into the discussion of how to make America and the world better and safer. A better behaved America makes for a safer world. Thus,we're working on the technical aspect that will make "GregO's Blog" available for debate contributions from people who reside outside the United States.
I'm confused, the Net is international, how would you even manage to *disallow* comments from other countries?
eolake said...
I'm confused, the Net is international, how would you even manage to *disallow* comments from other countries?
I'm with Mr Stobblehouse, how can one "disallow" or block comments from other countries?
Greg explained it to me now, It was a special thing they had set up for some reason, where you had be a registered US voter or something. But they removed that.
"A better behaved America makes for a safer world."
Not to mention it brings its own rewards to be civil, right?
Seen from the Middle-East, I'd say the USA are starting to get back on the right track. Just learn to discern demagogy and religious alibis, and you'll be... well, better off than Lebanon, at least! :-/
P.S.: I once found myself by pure accident (I wanted something entirely unrelated) on a site that managed to know my region of the world and offer me to "meet women in Beirut". So there clearly are ways to pinpoint the region of a user's IP. I don't know if that's legal, but technology can do it.
I took a look at the site. Mind you, he doesn't exactly come across as a brilliant thinker. The first paragraph of the first post reads as follows.
"Today, Saddam Hussein was rightfully put to death ... I doubt if anyone in their right mind would disagree that he deserved the ultimate punishment."
Regarding ttl's comment: I find it curious that someone would single out and opine on just one or two sentences of a piece that has been heralded by virtually the entire political spectrum; from arch conservatives including generals, to the most liberal news sources. I wonder where ttl's position fits in this spectrum. I welcome ttl to comment at my new Blog. We can use the stimulation of new and opposing ideas!
Granted, I opined based on only two sentences. But those sentences were so silly that I couldn't read any further.
"Today, Saddam Hussein was rightfully put to death ..."
Well, if the pastor says so, then it must be.
"I doubt if anyone ... would disagree ..."
The European Union officially disagrees. A large part of it's population disagrees.
"... in their right mind ..."
Also I disagree. So I am not in my right mind?
"... that he deserved the ultimate punishment."
Killing someone is not a punishment, at least to that person. This kind of thinking stems from false religious beliefs.
After you die you are no longer part of this reality where the concept of punishment has a meaning. (Regardless of what you believe about life after death.)
Putting Saddam Hussein to death may well have been an "ultimate punishment" to his wife, relatives, friends, etc. But to this person who by now is no longer with us, it is irrelevant.
ttl's statement that he stopped reading after 2 sentences is a bit condescending, to say the least, and certainly not indicative of an intellect so superior that he can assume what the rest of the blog said.
His closing statement that, "Putting Saddam Hussein to death may well have been an "ultimate punishment" to his wife, relatives, friends, etc. But to this person who by now is no longer with us, it is irrelevant." Is both illogical and naive.
The death penalty was relevant only up to the point that it needed to be: i.e. when he was brought to justice and justice was served. Religion has nothing to do with it. The death penalty is the ONLY deterrent to repeat offenders. I sincerly hope none of ttl's family is ever subjected to the horror of crimes like child rape and dismemberment -- knowingly perpertrated by Saddam's henchmen.
"I doubt if anyone in their right mind would disagree that he deserved the ultimate punishment."
Actually, the fact that very few countries still have the death sentence proves otherwise.
Also, many people think that "punishment" is unproductive, only meant to give an emotional release for the punisher, but hardly working as deterrent.
Death sentence as a "punishment" is a ludicrous idea. It is equivalent to saying: "Let's kill the guy. That will teach him a lesson."
Anything this stupid could only come from the same company that brought us "eternal torment in hell", a similarly paradoxical concept.
Whatever Saddam did (and Lord knows he WAS guilty), I cannot approve of capital punishment. But his fate was not worse than that of all the other Iraqis who also get executed under their country's legislation. Or those in other countries, including the USA... So I'm not shedding any tears specifically on Saddam, just objecting to a principle.
As for the execution in itself, basic decency would've required that it happened in a dignified manner, not the very embarrassing way we witnessed. It's not for Saddam, it's simply for us in general as a superiorly conscious species. We stoop quite low if we accept that ANYBODY be executed as if by a rabid lynch mob, whatever their crimes.
I also agree witth TTL on this : death by hanging and falling down a trap door is instantaneous and painless in itself. You're dead before you know it. Saddam would've been better punished with a lifetime of hard labor, for instance. Death is the ultimate escape, no cop can ever catch you back.
I'm almost sour about Pinochet escaping judgement, for instance. Why "almost"? Simply because I believe true justice is not of this world, and where he's gone he can pull no more strings. What I most hope for in this world, is that criminals be neutralized so they can't hurt anyone any more, and if possible that they be denied an undeserved life of comfort and pleasures by going to jail. If possible. Hate and vengeance are not constructive to the soul.
And yet, TTL, I myself would read all before giving in to a first impression. Hey, I keep getting misjudged on first impressions, because I'm not basic enough to be completely figured out in one minute! ;-)
Let's leave some room for eventual irony and reasonable doubt, yes?
"The death penalty is the ONLY deterrent to repeat offenders."
You know, Greg, I believe we've already debated the death penalty thoroughly on this blog. Not that "you're arriving too late" or anything! :-)
Just a quick reminder : risking death proved to not dissuade a lot of criminals before they actually get caught. It's been proven, the preventive effect is ridiculous. Of course, once they are dead, they won't repeat anything. But what about mistrials? You can't release an executed innocent! And, as relatively costly as it may seem in comparison, life imprisonment with no parole in a secure jail is just as efficient to protect society. It also has the benefit of not making killers of "the people". I loathe war precisely because it's a situation where you lose the freedom of NOT killing. Nobody should carry the spiritual burden of taking another human life if there's any reasonable way to make without such an act.
I agree that some horrible crimes make you "wanna kill the SOB". I darn well know I'd be very likely to forget my nice principles if confronted to such a situation. And yet, that doesn't mean that I'd be right just because I'd be blinded by sorrow. I'm just trying to make a point about a precious principle here. Everybody who's ever been forced to kill in self-defense or war will tell you it changes a person for ever. A form of loss of innocence or purity. I don't want to change like that. I've just seen many people die, and this has changed me quite enough for my taste, thank you very much. I am reminded of that very interesting slogan from anti-war or anti-death penalty demonstrators : "Not in my name." I wouldn't want someone I love to become a killer if there's any safe alternative available. Not even for "justice". Humankind today has the virtual capacity to rise above that barbaric attitude, and that makes it a moral duty. Be it only for our self-esteem.
"Actually, the fact that very few countries still have the death sentence proves otherwise."
Thank you for the support, Eolake. We clearly are getting there.
I live in Lebanon. We still have it here. We also have an anti-death sentence movement. But no change can be expected as long as this regime remains a mere masquerade. :-(
It is equivalent to saying: "Let's kill the guy. That will teach him a lesson."
Nicely said. I bet many people will fail to see the irony in this...
Though a believer, I don't think there is such a thing as "eternal torment in hell". It would mean that God's mercy somewhere ceases to be infinite? If you're in deserved torments and you repent, you should get parole! How could God be more vindicative than us imperfect humans?
I know, some will promise me the eternal flames for doubting the dogma. Well, as long as they don't try to speed up God's sanction and take matters in their own hands, I'm not overly worried. :-)
Perfect compassion would always give you a chance to seize by repenting in your heart, whatever you may have done. It's called the miracle of forgiveness, and if I'mnot mistaken it is at the very core of Christian faith. Now, if you can't or won't ever repent, then it would be your own exclusive fault and doing that you got non-ending pain. So it is possible, just not guaranteed to any and everybody. Of course.
Post a Comment