Notes on life, art, photography and technology, by a Danish dropout bohemian.
When you drink the water, remember the river.
Tuesday, October 06, 2009
Nadin
(Upcoming model on Domai.)
(I don't post full nudes here on my personal blog, because it has a different mission and audience from Domai, but occasionally I'm especially charmed by the face of a new model and will show that here.)
While not a figure photographer myself (wildlife and other natural history subjects are my trade), I must applaud you on your astonishing ability to find just the right model and produce such superb images of them. Well done indeed!
Do you ever feel guilty about exploiting all these poor, young, Russians? They are desperate for money. ...nah, you don't feel the least bad. Larry Flint wouldn't either.
When I see a smile like that, *I'm* the one feeling slightly desperate. Most Lebanese girls don't know how to smile. Too many hangups to let loose and just BE natural. It's a whole culture problem. Russia, you said? There's an idea. I should go to Russia. Many guys here marry Russians. Usually very pretty Russians, too. And it makes for some beautiful children.
I'll put that sample of dazzling sunshine as my new wallpaper as soon as the fun of Shirley Cothran's funnies starts wearing off. But that's not for the immediate future!
As much as I enjoy looking at this type of picture, I can't help but agree with most of the sentiments of 'Anonymous' The 'Larry Flint' dig was not really necessary, but he (she?) has a point about exploiting these girls from Russia and / or Eastern Europe. I KNOW the idea behind a business is to make money, but at what price?
A perfectly reasonable question, Tommy. Take a look at the vast majority of the names these girls have (and the names of the credited photographers). Often there are easy clues in the background of the picture too. Apply a modicum of common sense / intelligence, and it's a reasonable guess to say that most, if not all of these girls are from Russia / Eastern Europe etc, or similar geographic locations where the economy is hard, and these girls are crying out for money.
Unevenness in the global economy is often used to further accusations about exploitations. But take Wallmart, how can they sell stuff so cheap? Because the money they pay with where the stuff is produced buy a *lot* more *where the stuff is produced*. Buying a house in rural... whereever, is not the same as buying a house in LA. The girls are very well paid, and if I ever hear of a photographer exploiting anybody, I won't work with him, trust me.
Anonymous said... "exploiting all these poor, young, Russians? "
You may see a poor Russian.
I see an attractive healthy young woman. If she is able to make a little money using the assets that she was born with then what would be the problem with that.
We all do what it takes to survive. It is the way of the world. Joe
Born Again Bird Watcher, I would suggest changing you screen name to Born Again Bird Examiner. (Think about it...) Especially given the current topic and your open appreciation of it. :-) Besides, B.A.B.W. doesn't really suggest anything amusing.
yeah, whats wrong with russia, they should stop exploiting these girls and give them real jobs, what happened to the salt mines in siberia? this kind of thing didnt go on in stalins day Im sure
We all do what it takes to survive. It is the way of the world.
Yeah, great. Real sharp thinking there, Joe.
Forgive me if I don't like the idea of them doing it because they can't make money any other way, the same reason a lot of women in that part of the world become prostitutes.
If they freely choose it, fine, but likely they don't. Scum like Eolake encourage it.
Somehow, "encouraging" doesn't seem alienating to me. "Forcing them" would be something else. There ARE other ways to make money, sure. Better money, or easier ways? Now that's something else. The minimum wage in Lebanon is $300/month. Sure, that's still way better than the $30-45 in Bangladesh....
"what happened to the salt mines in siberia?" Aktually, zhat's a miskonception, komrade Sukihova. People sent to Siberia vorked in ice mines. Da. Kutting ice kubes to be exported to the champagne-drinking kapitalist West. Exploiting THEIR stupid money spending, ha-ha-ha. So klever.
Aaaaanyway... Any job can be considered as exploitation, if you look at it hard enough. Doing something because you need money, and all... Don't we all sell our lives/souls in a way? Whether in a cubicle or in front of a photo or TV camera? Eastern Europe girls are often seen in nude and/or erotic photography for several reasons: the economical crisis, yes, but also because there are many pretty ones, with a surprising rate in fact (not needing or resorting to surgical body modifications either), and because they tend to be less uptight about body shyness. It's related to culture. Remember, also, that Russia, and furthermore the entire Eastern Europe considered together, has a HUGE overall population. An ordinary proportion of girls posing will lead to a high number.
If a woman has no personal problem with posing nude to earn her living, I don't see why I should have one for her. It's not paid sex, after all. Neither porn nor prostitution, no body violation, be it consented or imposed. Just being beautiful. For centuries, beautiful women have been paid to pose for the artists capturing their beauty. It's NORMAL, people. You'll see more of them among the not wealthy because typical social shyness tends to need an opposite incentive to be overcome. It's way more appealing than mopping floors in some snotty nobility's mansion... Frankly, that radiant smile doesn't look too cryingly exploited to me. (Hey, she's got very healthy teeth...) And I don't agree with my Captcha: "tackishe". I don't find her tackish at all. Most tasteful, in fact! :-)
Not denying there IS a very real problem with human exploitation in these parts of the world (and several others!!!). But it's not ALL like that.
Oh, and Eolake? Here's a hinter: have you tried finding models in France? No shortage of pretty babes there, they're not typically uptight like Americans. Plus, one of them recently won an internet competition for the world's prettiest natural butt, I saw her on TV. (Rather astonishing too: incredibly perky cheeks, it looks extraordinarily like a pair of yummy apples. I'll try to remember her name. Probably a great candidate for Domai.) And as a bonus, France has a lot of ethnic diversity nowadays. There are French-born people from Africa, Asia, the Arab world, the Pacific... practically all types.
There are even some Native Americans happily established in France and often still living in their traditional lifestyle. Well, except for the buffalo hunting part, naturally! (Blue Otter, here's thinking of you. I'll never forget your flute playing in your teepee that night we met. That was magical.)
funny how its all one way, is it not exploitation of men when a woman offers to have sex with them for money, or offers photos of herself on a porn site?
Hmmm, I wouldn't mind getting "exploited" occasionally. ;-)
But speaking of sexual-themed exploitation:
The Refund Holly walks up to the service counter of a well-known national U.S. retail chain store that isn't Wal-Mart and tells the clerk she wants a refund for the toaster she bought because it won't work. The clerk tells her that he can't give her a refund because she bought the toaster on "special sale". Suddenly, Holly throws her arms up and starts screaming, "PINCH MY NIPPLES! PINCH MY NIPPLES! PINCH MY NIPPLES! In seconds, a crowd begins to form, and the clerk calls the store manager. The manager hastily arrives and asks Holly, "Ma'am, what's wrong?" Holly explains the problem with the toaster, but the manager repeats that he can't give her a refund because she bought it on "special sale". Once again, Holly throws her arms up and starts screaming, "PINCH MY NIPPLES! PINCH MY NIPPLES! PINCH MY NIPPLES!" and the crowd of onlookers gets even larger. Shocked, the store manager asks, "Ma'am, why are you saying that?" In a huff and a very loud voice, Holly says, "BECAUSE I LIKE TO HAVE MY NIPPLES PINCHED WHEN I'M GETTING SCREWED!" The crowd broke into applause and her money was quickly refunded.
BTW, according to US law and court rulings, if an underage teen girl spontaneously posts naked photos of herself on the internet, she must get jailed for "child pornography and sexploitation". So maybe your argument can be contradicted, Sukiho. :-/
'The girls are very well paid, and if I ever hear of a photographer exploiting anybody, I won't work with him, trust me.
I'm making the assumption that photographers get the same rates for pictures, regardless of their geographic location, yet from what has been said the implication is that these girls are likely to be paid vastly different rates for their 'services' according to their location. Whichever way you look at that, it's exploitation in one form or another. BLOODY HYPOCRITE!
I recall that period where I worked 100-hour weeks for an hourly salary of $0.75. Amounting to $300 at the end of the month, no weekends, no holidays. AND, as a bonus, my colleagues and I were treated like infertile manure. (Yes, Sukiho, I KNOW that's an oxymoron. Sarcasm intended!) That's hospital internships in Lebanon for you... Close to three years of that life, it's left its deep mark up to this day.
If back then I could have been paid 20 times that for just a few hours of posing naked for innocent photos that women would enjoy looking at, I don't think I would've hesitated a lot before volunteering with a smile... *OR* that I would've felt MORE exploited. Definitely more appreciated, though. It's one of those "dream jobs" that are very well paid for little effort. A little like the guy who had to apply the body makeup for Rebecca Romijn-Stamos in the X-Men movies, for three hours every day. At least, I like to THINK it was a guy. Makes the fantasy more enjoyable. RRS had less fun, she retells, especially because of the large yellow contact lenses, very irritating to her eyes. (Hmmm... no wonder she lost to Wolverine in that Statue of Liberty combat, then... Hello, handicap!)
Provided your personal upbringing doesn't make nudity feel to you like your very flesh and soul is being ripped away from you, it's rather the good life, no? Angel, not to accuse you of angelism or anything, but youreally should check more documentaries showing how at least 5 out of 6 human beings on Earth live and slave for a little small change. Mining work, cultivating arid land, etc, etc, etc. No wonder these Domai models are smiling!!!
Whichever way you choose to couch your words, what is happening here IS blatant exploitation.
You complain that your own experiences have 'left a deep mark up to this day', yet you chose to do that job. I'm assuming here that you are an intelligent, educated person, otherwise you would not even have been in a position to 'enjoy' an internship. Being in a position where you had what would appear to be a good level of education, you would, I assume, have had options as an alternative to medicine, which you chose not to exercise, for whatever reason. Perhaps the cynic in me says that you could see light at the end of the tunnel, and realised that for 3 years of 'unpleasantness' you would in return have the basis of a comfortable, professional career that would / should keep you in an extremely well paid occupation for the rest of your life. I doubt very much if many / any of these girls have had such alternatives available, or any prospect of a long-term stable career being improved because of their exposure on the internet? I've no doubt that many of these girls are perfectly happy doing what they do: unfortunately it does not take much digging about in Google to find way too many documented instances of some of these girls 'progressing' to hard-core pornography, prostitution etc., and other reports are there to be found of photographers being prosecuted and imprisoned, even in Russia! I'm certain that you can find as much information as I did, if you only bothered to look?
So. Confession time.
I worked within this 'industry' professionally for more than 20 years, and saw at first hand the damage that WAS done to (mostly) young women. The longer I was involved, the worse it got, until I could stomach the hypocrisy no more and left the industry entirely. I'll make no secret of this; during that period of time, several people were given jail sentences as a result of police investigation instigated by me. I'm loathe to call them photographers, although that was the 'trade' they plied at the time of their demise. Without exception, these people were all released, and went straight back to their old tricks. That part of this 'industry' is a cesspit: no 2 ways about it!
It's a very simple fact. These models ARE exploited, some to a much worse degree than others.
Did I personally ever exploit anyone? Probably, to some degree, though everyone I ever paid directly got way over the agency rate, and were usually earning a much better hourly rate than I was: your monthly rate was frequently eclipsed by what some of them were paid daily! I always tried to make sure that people were treated properly, and fairly; I'm very happy that I can still count many of the girls as friends, years later.
Perhaps now I feel a little like the poacher-turned-gamekeeper? :-)
Were YOU exploited? IMHO, yes; it's very common within the medical professions at that stage in your career. It didn't bother you enough to actually do anything about it though...
I KNOW that exploitation seems to be a way of life for many, on a world-wide basis...
But that still does not make it right, or acceptable.
Well said, Angel, and thank you for being candid about your involvement. It's refreshing (though disturbing) to hear the blunt truth from someone who has actually walked the path, rather than read the book, or simply hit the Google button!
much talk of exploitation but its like talking about god, you can apply an emotional term to anything, especially if you throw in that you are an authority, but without explaining it its meaningless, didnt Ecclesiastes say all is exploitation?
The last of my internships, in a new hospital, was officially for a residentship and becoming a specialist after my graduation. I had passed their entrance exam with flying colors -not to brag, the competition really wasn't tough-, and then they started making shaky excuses that before I was taken for a guaranteed specialization residentship, somehow I had to spend a year in internship first. "Lack of free options", or some such crap. In spite of my top ranking. (Why me and only me? Go figure. Probably a matter of typical lebanese unadmitted communautarism.) Officially, these internships are for learning and practicing, gaining knowledge and experience, at least in part. In reality, we were given NOTHING useful to do. Chores, running errands, filling pointless paperwork, and serving as an ego-boosting doormat for beginner Residents less competent than me, for the Doctors, and even for the nurses. That's NOT what I had signed for. Halfway through that "mere formality" year, I was sacked in a most shameful way... shameful for those stooping to such methods, not for me; they practically admitted that my dedication made the big Doctors look bad by comparison so I "had to go". Among other things. "You spend too much time with every patient", to quote the boss word for word. Sure, I did inform him that what he called "spending" I called "giving", and that all my work WAS being done, but I knew he wouldn't care.
Not to mention my getting transfered from ICU on the morning of the very first day because, after making sure of telling my colleague what I was going to do, I took a quick bathroom break. It was the best moment for it, since there were two top Residents present in the service at that time, along with my colleague Intern. When I returned, the snarly Chief Resident, who had just wasted a whole sitting hour listing us our frantic duties (24 hours worth of work to fit in our 9 hour shifts) and giving us pointless "homework" on top (impossible to meet demands, that's the basis of worker exploitation), declared when he saw mw that in ICU I had to be available at every moment, "so get out of here, I don't want to see you ever again". Not that I minded one bit getting transfered from under that psycho's authority. There were also regular crazy accusations, like my "not even examining" patients that turned out to be non-existent. Just to give you a brief Daliesque picture. Make that Kafkaian.
They almost caused me to miss my own brother's wedding, by decreeing that "the night shift list can absolutely not be modified", even if a colleague was more than willing to swap. This, from people to whom I volunteered on my third day to take a double on call night shift because THEY HAD BLOODY FORGOTTEN TO NAME ANYBODY FOR THAT DAY in their joke of a list, and I didn't even find time to phone home and tell my parents that evening until they were in panic at 9PM. I worked with a dedication which you could frankly call enthusiasm, but it was like giving Swiss chocolate to the carrion-eating vultures. Incidentally, in Lebanon, as you can easily imagine, there are few things more sacred that your brother's wedding... Is it any wonder that this place lost its status as University Hospital? But anyway, this is why I'm a GP today. I decided that my basic dignity and in fact my physical well-being were not worth the trouble of trying another dive in that sort of mafia-ruled administrative cesspool.
As for "It didn't bother you enough to actually do anything about it though"... ha ha ha, my dear Angel. Your candor so touches and amuses me! How fresh, how deliciously naive. You actually think THERE IS ANYTHING TO BE DONE IN LEBANON? That we have any vaguely plausible Justice System? I well know that France has very strict laws about work harassment, but that's an actual nation, civilized and all. FYI, the very official assassin of our President Beshir Gemayel, in the early Eighties, now has a junior school named after him for being the hero who planted that bomb... Talk about the Herostratus syndrome! I didn't "let it go" out of serenity, buddy. Just out of basic realism.
And I've seen things, daily scenes of exploitation, around me, that make my own experience absolutely trivial by comparison. Many people, probably the majority, treat their employees in a way they wouldn't treat their own dog. (And people in these parts are not overly respectful of dogs, either! "Dog" is one of our most demeaning insults.) Out of mercy, I'll spare you the details. I feel ashamed as a human being, from just having WITNESSED it and belonging to the same phylogenetic genus as those Yahoos.
So I know a thing or two about exploitation... Which reminds me. I think one of the main annoyances of my former slave-drivers was that they couldn't break my spirit, make me submissive or anything. Among my peers, I was highly liked during that period, in great part because I was the one always lifting their spirits with my cheerfluness, sharing the advice of my experience every time they needed me, being there for support during delicate procedures, etc. I found no motive to forget my worth and feel like a nothing. Yeah, obviously, I wasn't aware I was committing THE most unforgivable crime of all. A moral crime against the noble principles and unwritten rules of factual slavery. But don't go thinking that I'm bitter about it. Mostly, I'm just sarcastic with a sulfuric acid causticity. :-P
Angie, man, I'm not denying, or lessening, anything about what you tell us there, either. It's just that widespread exploitation doesn't in any way prove that it's universal, and sully the rest along with it. The sleazy image and social stigma associated with nudity or anything sexual contributes in major part, by outlawing it, to this domain being a lawless world. Society, first and foremost, bears the responsibility in CREATING the very conditions of human exploitation. It's got nothing to do with the activity itself. (Remember the Prohibition? It MADE drinking alcohol a criminal activity and a basic health risk from adulterated booze!) The more official and legitimate a person's activity, the lesser the chances of the worst going on. Do you honestly know many sites more official and legitimate than Domai, not to mention any that are LESS smutty? Shoot, not even "the institution" which is Playboy!
I'm a born judge of character. I've got a definite gift for empathy, for perceiving other's feelings, for reading a face. (And I can tell you, the absolutely ugliest face is that of Hate. It's universal.) With most of the Domai models -I don't have time to check them ALL out- I don't "see" any signs of exploitation. That's just it. I do believe the webmaster we're talking about here isn't in the remotest way a sleazebag. Not to mention (okay, I *AM* actually mentioning it!) that I know him quite well personally now, and I've got a pretty good and reliable picture of who he truly is. An intimately decent and respectful person, among other things. In fact, one of the absolutely most respectful people I've met -or more like "spoken with"- in person. But I'm not imposing this opinion on anybody else. :-) You can trust me on this, or you can travel on your own on another road. (Like the one labeld "here be Dragons". ;-)
You know, not every nude photographer, or mainstream movie producer, is a drooling predator bent solely on bedding a maximum number of hapless, helpless women. There's a part of sleaze, and there's a part of authenticity. Nude paintings and statues of women, men, children... are a vastly recognized form of totally valid, legitimate, respected art since many centuries. It's not all panting erotica or slutty porno. Erotica itself can be the lamest, most boring thing in the world, or be very, very aesthetic. In fact, the same goes for explicit sex. "Typical" porn is just its dominant and most noticed aspect.
[Your adult movie marathon will return shortly, stay tuned.]
Have you seen Sex and Lucia? It's VERY "hot", but it's a romantic movie. And I found the sex scenes very beautiful. Very "authentic". France is very worried these days that many young men are "discovering" about sex through porno movies, and this worry is based entirely on the greatly deformed image of sexuality conveyed by this standardized "junk food of copulation". It's not about explicitness, it's about the spirit. Same goes for the nude photos of Domai. I've noticed one thing about Hegre's photos, or those of Femjoy, or Met-Art (all are generous in free samples): it seems as if 98% of the photos follow the main rule of "spread them, show us the genitals, be SEXY, that's what people pay for". It's just not the same spirit. Natural smiles there are the exception. On Domai, they're the main rule. (BTW, how many photos of Domai DO show the intimate regions? Not zero, not all, a reasonable proportion treating ALL the body with a natural, guilt-free attitude. No lewd emphasis, no hypocritical dissimulation.) It's subtle to some, but it's clear to he who's good at noticing: Eolake neither titillates through very careful suggestiveness-and-frustration, nor turns on with smutty gynaecologic exhibitionism. It's all about a different, new perspective. Not an unprecedented one, but still VERY new.
I believe we all immediately agree on firmly condemning exploitation. Where most people soon disagree, is whether one thing or another significantly defines as exploitation. There ARE some women who choose nude modeling because they like showing and sharing the beauty of their bodies. Or because they want to liberate themselves from the suffocating shell of socially-imposed body shame. There ARE women who love having sex, and will either act in porno (clearly having FUN), or become high-end escorts/prostitutes. Check out the Netherlands for some easy to find examples. They're not the majority, by far, but they do exist. (Then again, are ethical Doctors the majority?...) From her lengthy and very relaxed interview about the film 9 songs (which I also found rather touching, BTW), it seems that Margo Stilley didn't feel one bit exploited. That supremely sexual movie was fresh, tender, and I dare say rather cute. Again, JMO.
Let us wisely pick our fights, so that our efforts will be usefully deployed. No offense meant, but my personal, subjective opinion is that, by calling Mr Eolake Stobblehouse an exploiter (or accomplice to), you're not spending your praiseworthy efforts on a relevant cause. Me, I trust him to stay vigilant on the working conditions of the models, exactly like he's very vigilant about their age certificates. Even though it's unsure he legally NEEDS to, since there is no sexual activity involved or even suggested, it's all purely innocent nudity. Hey, to him it's probably routine procedure and paperwork by now. Most likely, if everything is in order as usual, then all's proper and fine. Definitely not the bottom of the basket here. Yes, clearly you've SEEN the bottom of the basket, Angel. Which all the more makes me surprised that you focus on the least debatable of all photo sites that I know.
And, at the risk of repeating what countless people said before me, Domai is the first site of nude women which I'm not only unashamed, but proud to show to others.
Sukiho pointed out what I already knew, but wasn't aware that the Bible itself had talked about it. (It really IS a big book!) Philosophically or technically speaking, anything CAN be considered as exploitation. Are wealthy celebrities exploiting the willingness of the public to pay for their movies/music, or is the public exploiting the very life of celebrities by relentlessly feeding their lowly egoes with gossip and paparazzi material? Do we help others out of true generosity, of simply because it makes US feel good to be "noble"? Or even worse, in the sole hope of getting rewarded by God for being good, because we want to go to Heaven? Is our love for our children more than genetic instinct and the desire to become in a way immortal through them? There can always be room for doubt, if you insist.
The Universe is intrinsically selfish. The lions feeding on zebras can be considered as absolute exploitation. Or conversely, you could also consider that they keep the species healthy by constantly removing the sickly, and that by limiting their demography they prevent them from starving after eating all the vegetation in a continent where droughts are regular. Being killed by lion is far more merciful than the slow horrible agony of thirst and starvation (let's not forget the water's limited too). Speaking of plant life, we breathe oxygen thanks to the millions of years of plants producing it from CO2, and yet we also eat these plants. Save for those giant venus flytraps in Tarzan movies, who fight back... How many of us are convinced and strict vegetarians out of consideration for animals? For my part, I admit being born an omnivore, I accept my intrinsic biological nature and the moral questioning it brings. No God-created predator is intrinsically evil, and neither are we for being born that way.
If these here Domai women are properly paid and not coerced into doing this, it's within the reasonable norms of the way the Cosmos works. And I do believe they are. Again, just MY opinion. Before criticizing a man simply because "he makes a living from nude photos", perhaps we should focus on getting a legal frame installed for all traditionally stigmatized "immoral" activities, so that exploitation could be efficiently fought. Isn't ensuring people's completely free choice to do or not do this more important than complaining about the way things are today? I don't necessarily agree with Kent McManigal's "truly anarchic" ideology. But I deeply respect that the man tried to ACT for his beliefs, that he didn't just stand there and talk and gripe about it. He was a Presidential candidate in the USA. How many took THEIR political commitment that far?
Talking is good to trade and spread ideas. To think things over. Declaring "this is all exploitation, period, and therefore you're scum", that's not very constructive debate. In fact, that's not debate at all. A real debate would go something like this: "Mister Stobblehouse, can you certify that your models are treated properly? How much do they get paid? What are their working conditions?" Incidentally, Eolake has already given us several answers to such questions. I quote from memory: "Most of these girls do it for a short time for some extra money, so it's nearly impossible to go back for an old model because members would love to see more of her." It's a weird sort of slave, who come and go as they please, no?...
I hope all this talk brought some useful reflection and information, and wasn't just a bloated bilious boasting bloke's abominably boring bizarre banter of blah-blah. ;-) Buh-bye now.
Pascal is a little long winded but I do not disagree with him on what he has to say.
People are always looking to improve their life situation. That is the motivation to work harder, improve their education and rise up the social ladder.
If anyone is looking for down trodden people to fight for. Then I am sure that you will find people in more desperate situations than these models on display at DOMAI.
You have to pick your battles to fight. I don't see a need to resort to name calling or make accusations of people on this blog.
[pant] Long winded? [pant] You don't say! [pant] I'm still [pant] out of breath. [pant] But I think [pant] it was really [pant] worth it. [pant] JM [pant] HO. [pant]
P.S.: Joe, you're -relatively- new on this blog, but my trademark long-windedness is what instantly made me famous on an old discussion about Euthanasia. (A great read if you're in solitary confinement for a couple of weeks.)
I have followed the beginning of the discussion. And then didn't read it all, sorry, but there were were some thoughts that came to my mind.
I can see on the picture that the photographer and the model are both women. (Both names are written below.) So the idea of male exploiting female does not apply to this case.
I am a woman and as a photographer I have made a few series of nudes. First with a friend who is dancer, and who is very happy with the pictures. She had posed for painters, and after the first series we looked together at the pictures and discussed them, and that helped me to design the second shooting.
Then I made another series with a girl who wanted pictures for her book. That was quite a funny encounter too.
For both of these girls, I gave them beautiful pictures, they are proud of them, and I am happy of the pictures...
And, by the way, I think there are quite more humiliating jobs. With posing for domai-like pictures, you are not becoming a prostitute. It is quite like posing for a painter. I think it is more rewarding than to work in a MacDonalds, for example.
There are always different situations, and always important not to judge too quickly.
I find the idea that women shouldnt be prostitutes or even pose nude because its self exploitation very strange, I know it goes on in many societies today, mostly fundamental religious societies, but I like to think we live in a society where most people, including woman, are able to make their own decisions once they reach adulthood
"Food for thought." And tastier than the one you'd serve if you worked at MacDonalds! :-)
In many places I know, simply posing nude is declared "pornography", and appearing naked in a movie "prostitution". And I won't even get into the whole matter of young and poor marrying old and rich. Too many name-calling opportunities.
Basically, you cannot exploit YOURSELF.
And whether the idea of someone close to me doing certain things bothers me or not, is irrelevant to their intrinsic freedom. As long as they're adults and mentally normal, they are fully free, period. Only in barbarically primitive mentalities such as Arab countries or Pakistan, can one person's life choices be dictated by the family that literally owns their destiny. Such as "shari'aa-legally" selling daughters in marriage at 13 or at 9. During the civil war, my father worked on Gulf construction sites, and got to know Pakistani workers more than he ever wanted to know. "Savages" is not an insult: rather often, it's an objective statement! :-(
What I do mind, a lot, always, is a person being exploited by another when they don't want to. The vast majority of today's prostitution bothers me for one sole reason: not because it's paid/commercial sex, but because these women are factually the slaves of their pimps, and treated horribly through coercion, blackmail, and forcing them to become drug addicts. What I can only object with every fiber of my being, is stomping on individual liberties.
It's rather hard to display a Domai smile under such circumstances... And since they ARE all happily smiling... you draw your own conclusions. :-)
Remember that high-end escort girl company in the USA, whose managing woman got sued and condemned recently? It wasn't for pimping, because the girls weren't exploited. She got jailed for tax fraud. Not paying her business dues to the IRS. The Lay... I mean the Law's the Law, and its name is Dredd.
OK, Lord Stobblehouse, I've done all my blogging for tonight, and I've even remembered to insert several pretend smileys. Now can I have food, drink, and go to bed? My sport shoes making shift only starts in five hours... Please?
"Who gives a shit?" The anally retentive, perhaps? But only after you've asked them to give it insistently enough! ;-) That's how they get their kicks. Three guesses WHERE they like to receive their kicks...
DA, I dont think I need the state to punish my friends if they happen do things that concern, perturb or dismay me. you end up with societies like Sudan where men are allowed to rip girls shirts off to make sure they arnt wearing bras.
Mmmmm... This is an old post, but I happened to stumble accross it today. Much talk about exploitation, righfulness, etc. Posing naked is a job like any other. Paid, like any other. And much easier than most. How can it be exploitation? How is it in any way better to die with your lungs full of whatever type of dust you breathe in whatever type of mine? How is it better to work in a sweatshop, for example, hidden from everybody, in constant fear of being deported if spotted? Because you show skin? Why is it that showing your naked body is a "sin"? Come on! Stop your hypocritical puritanism! Many people actually like working in the pornographic industry, for instance. I fail to see how unsing your body as a form of art can in any way be considered exploitation. Who hasn't admired a statue from, say, Michelangelo? I'm sure they didn't get all those muscular forms from their imagination. They must have had models. Has anyone called that exploitation? My wife and I often take pictures of each other naked. We haven't published them anywhere, but if we did... would we be exploiting ourselves? What about all those self-shots of girls you see all over the place? They are voluntarily posted. Are they exploiting themselves? Is there such a thing as "self-exploitation"? The mere word "exploitation" implies a relationship between much work and little pay. Is this the case here? Luckily for many, apparently sinful for a few, the body of the woman is a very beautiful thing. If they decide to share it with others, shut up and watch in silence, or turn around and go do whatever you think is "proper" and "clean". But don't look at the images until you're tired, and then raise a scandal because you had the opportunity to see those images...
Just be sure to always stay careful with these personal photos you take. Should they in some way end up in the hands of a stranger, say, in a lost cellphone, stolen camera, after the "visit" of a burglar, or having your PC repaired by someone a little nosy, you can safely bet they'll soon be all over the internet. So, be mindful of how and where you store them.
I've read authentic stories of housewives whose stolen intimate photos were sold to porn sites, complete with her full ID in the filename. Not pleasant if it was done without your consent... but virtually impossible to undo. And can show up when a prospective employer googles your name for some background.
It says in the Gospel that one day all will be revealed, no secret shall be kept. To me, this is a very god reason to not be judgemental, to just let people be imperfect themselves and all, but many people in this world aren't as... "christian" as me. And, ironically, they're often the same ones hiding the most shameful secrets, like infidelity or abusing their children. In old French, the word "cagot" meant all at once a hooded person, a bigot, and a hypocrite. I love old French. :-)
46 comments:
Nice teeth, EO...
Oh, nice smile too...
While not a figure photographer myself (wildlife and other natural history subjects are my trade), I must applaud you on your astonishing ability to find just the right model and produce such superb images of them. Well done indeed!
Do you ever feel guilty about exploiting all these poor, young, Russians? They are desperate for money. ...nah, you don't feel the least bad. Larry Flint wouldn't either.
She looks lovely! It was a good idea of you to post the picture here. Thanks for sharing.
What's NOT nice about this fresh little angel?
When I see a smile like that, *I'm* the one feeling slightly desperate. Most Lebanese girls don't know how to smile. Too many hangups to let loose and just BE natural. It's a whole culture problem.
Russia, you said? There's an idea. I should go to Russia. Many guys here marry Russians. Usually very pretty Russians, too.
And it makes for some beautiful children.
I'll put that sample of dazzling sunshine as my new wallpaper as soon as the fun of Shirley Cothran's funnies starts wearing off. But that's not for the immediate future!
As much as I enjoy looking at this type of picture, I can't help but agree with most of the sentiments of 'Anonymous'
The 'Larry Flint' dig was not really necessary, but he (she?) has a point about exploiting these girls from Russia and / or Eastern Europe.
I KNOW the idea behind a business is to make money, but at what price?
Here goes Tommy's dumb qustions... How do you know that she is Russian?
A perfectly reasonable question, Tommy. Take a look at the vast majority of the names these girls have (and the names of the credited photographers). Often there are easy clues in the background of the picture too. Apply a modicum of common sense / intelligence, and it's a reasonable guess to say that most, if not all of these girls are from Russia / Eastern Europe etc, or similar geographic locations where the economy is hard, and these girls are crying out for money.
Unevenness in the global economy is often used to further accusations about exploitations.
But take Wallmart, how can they sell stuff so cheap? Because the money they pay with where the stuff is produced buy a *lot* more *where the stuff is produced*. Buying a house in rural... whereever, is not the same as buying a house in LA.
The girls are very well paid, and if I ever hear of a photographer exploiting anybody, I won't work with him, trust me.
Anonymous said...
"exploiting all these poor, young, Russians? "
You may see a poor Russian.
I see an attractive healthy young woman. If she is able to make a little money using the assets that she was born with then what would be the problem with that.
We all do what it takes to survive. It is the way of the world.
Joe
Born Again Bird Watcher,
I would suggest changing you screen name to Born Again Bird Examiner. (Think about it...)
Especially given the current topic and your open appreciation of it. :-)
Besides, B.A.B.W. doesn't really suggest anything amusing.
"You can just call me... Ivan."
yeah, whats wrong with russia, they should stop exploiting these girls and give them real jobs, what happened to the salt mines in siberia? this kind of thing didnt go on in stalins day Im sure
We all do what it takes to survive. It is the way of the world.
Yeah, great. Real sharp thinking there, Joe.
Forgive me if I don't like the idea of them doing it because they can't make money any other way, the same reason a lot of women in that part of the world become prostitutes.
If they freely choose it, fine, but likely they don't. Scum like Eolake encourage it.
Somehow, "encouraging" doesn't seem alienating to me. "Forcing them" would be something else.
There ARE other ways to make money, sure. Better money, or easier ways? Now that's something else.
The minimum wage in Lebanon is $300/month. Sure, that's still way better than the $30-45 in Bangladesh....
"what happened to the salt mines in siberia?"
Aktually, zhat's a miskonception, komrade Sukihova. People sent to Siberia vorked in ice mines. Da. Kutting ice kubes to be exported to the champagne-drinking kapitalist West. Exploiting THEIR stupid money spending, ha-ha-ha. So klever.
Aaaaanyway...
Any job can be considered as exploitation, if you look at it hard enough. Doing something because you need money, and all... Don't we all sell our lives/souls in a way? Whether in a cubicle or in front of a photo or TV camera?
Eastern Europe girls are often seen in nude and/or erotic photography for several reasons: the economical crisis, yes, but also because there are many pretty ones, with a surprising rate in fact (not needing or resorting to surgical body modifications either), and because they tend to be less uptight about body shyness. It's related to culture. Remember, also, that Russia, and furthermore the entire Eastern Europe considered together, has a HUGE overall population. An ordinary proportion of girls posing will lead to a high number.
If a woman has no personal problem with posing nude to earn her living, I don't see why I should have one for her. It's not paid sex, after all. Neither porn nor prostitution, no body violation, be it consented or imposed. Just being beautiful. For centuries, beautiful women have been paid to pose for the artists capturing their beauty. It's NORMAL, people.
You'll see more of them among the not wealthy because typical social shyness tends to need an opposite incentive to be overcome. It's way more appealing than mopping floors in some snotty nobility's mansion...
Frankly, that radiant smile doesn't look too cryingly exploited to me. (Hey, she's got very healthy teeth...)
And I don't agree with my Captcha: "tackishe". I don't find her tackish at all. Most tasteful, in fact! :-)
Not denying there IS a very real problem with human exploitation in these parts of the world (and several others!!!). But it's not ALL like that.
Oh, and Eolake? Here's a hinter: have you tried finding models in France?
No shortage of pretty babes there, they're not typically uptight like Americans. Plus, one of them recently won an internet competition for the world's prettiest natural butt, I saw her on TV. (Rather astonishing too: incredibly perky cheeks, it looks extraordinarily like a pair of yummy apples. I'll try to remember her name. Probably a great candidate for Domai.)
And as a bonus, France has a lot of ethnic diversity nowadays. There are French-born people from Africa, Asia, the Arab world, the Pacific... practically all types.
There are even some Native Americans happily established in France and often still living in their traditional lifestyle. Well, except for the buffalo hunting part, naturally!
(Blue Otter, here's thinking of you. I'll never forget your flute playing in your teepee that night we met. That was magical.)
S.C.U.M. : Some Call Us Men.
Others are just jealous because of their tiny willy.
Na zdarovie, tovaritch.
"You can just call me... Ivan."
funny how its all one way, is it not exploitation of men when a woman offers to have sex with them for money, or offers photos of herself on a porn site?
Hmmm, I wouldn't mind getting "exploited" occasionally. ;-)
But speaking of sexual-themed exploitation:
The Refund
Holly walks up to the service counter of a well-known national U.S. retail chain store that isn't Wal-Mart and tells the clerk she wants a refund for the toaster she bought because it won't work.
The clerk tells her that he can't give her a refund because she bought the toaster on "special sale".
Suddenly, Holly throws her arms up and starts screaming, "PINCH MY NIPPLES! PINCH MY NIPPLES! PINCH MY NIPPLES!
In seconds, a crowd begins to form, and the clerk calls the store manager.
The manager hastily arrives and asks Holly, "Ma'am, what's wrong?"
Holly explains the problem with the toaster, but the manager repeats that he can't give her a refund because she bought it on "special sale".
Once again, Holly throws her arms up and starts screaming, "PINCH MY NIPPLES! PINCH MY NIPPLES! PINCH MY NIPPLES!" and the crowd of onlookers gets even larger.
Shocked, the store manager asks, "Ma'am, why are you saying that?"
In a huff and a very loud voice, Holly says, "BECAUSE I LIKE TO HAVE MY NIPPLES PINCHED WHEN I'M GETTING SCREWED!"
The crowd broke into applause and her money was quickly refunded.
BTW, according to US law and court rulings, if an underage teen girl spontaneously posts naked photos of herself on the internet, she must get jailed for "child pornography and sexploitation".
So maybe your argument can be contradicted, Sukiho. :-/
"sexploitation"
is that a real charge?
" Anonymous said...
We all do what it takes to survive. It is the way of the world.
Yeah, great. Real sharp thinking there, Joe."
Only stating the obvious. Putting food on the table has always been the reason that we labor and toil.
"Forgive me if I don't like the idea of them doing it......"
I am sure they stay awake at night over concern about what you think.
It is simple economics. If the demand is there for a service. Be it labor or simply allowing your image to be used. Then it will be filled by someone.
I did not see any evidence of mistreatment. So I would bet that these women had the free will to accept the job or decline.
I rise at 5 AM to work a 12 hour shift. So who is the one being exploited?
Joe
'The girls are very well paid, and if I ever hear of a photographer exploiting anybody, I won't work with him, trust me.
I'm making the assumption that photographers get the same rates for pictures, regardless of their geographic location, yet from what has been said the implication is that these girls are likely to be paid vastly different rates for their 'services' according to their location.
Whichever way you look at that, it's exploitation in one form or another.
BLOODY HYPOCRITE!
I recall that period where I worked 100-hour weeks for an hourly salary of $0.75. Amounting to $300 at the end of the month, no weekends, no holidays. AND, as a bonus, my colleagues and I were treated like infertile manure. (Yes, Sukiho, I KNOW that's an oxymoron. Sarcasm intended!) That's hospital internships in Lebanon for you...
Close to three years of that life, it's left its deep mark up to this day.
If back then I could have been paid 20 times that for just a few hours of posing naked for innocent photos that women would enjoy looking at, I don't think I would've hesitated a lot before volunteering with a smile... *OR* that I would've felt MORE exploited. Definitely more appreciated, though.
It's one of those "dream jobs" that are very well paid for little effort.
A little like the guy who had to apply the body makeup for Rebecca Romijn-Stamos in the X-Men movies, for three hours every day.
At least, I like to THINK it was a guy. Makes the fantasy more enjoyable. RRS had less fun, she retells, especially because of the large yellow contact lenses, very irritating to her eyes. (Hmmm... no wonder she lost to Wolverine in that Statue of Liberty combat, then... Hello, handicap!)
Provided your personal upbringing doesn't make nudity feel to you like your very flesh and soul is being ripped away from you, it's rather the good life, no?
Angel, not to accuse you of angelism or anything, but youreally should check more documentaries showing how at least 5 out of 6 human beings on Earth live and slave for a little small change. Mining work, cultivating arid land, etc, etc, etc.
No wonder these Domai models are smiling!!!
Pascal......
Whichever way you choose to couch your words, what is happening here IS blatant exploitation.
You complain that your own experiences have 'left a deep mark up to this day', yet you chose to do that job. I'm assuming here that you are an intelligent, educated person, otherwise you would not even have been in a position to 'enjoy' an internship. Being in a position where you had what would appear to be a good level of education, you would, I assume, have had options as an alternative to medicine, which you chose not to exercise, for whatever reason. Perhaps the cynic in me says that you could see light at the end of the tunnel, and realised that for 3 years of 'unpleasantness' you would in return have the basis of a comfortable, professional career that would / should keep you in an extremely well paid occupation for the rest of your life.
I doubt very much if many / any of these girls have had such alternatives available, or any prospect of a long-term stable career being improved because of their exposure on the internet?
I've no doubt that many of these girls are perfectly happy doing what they do: unfortunately it does not take much digging about in Google to find way too many documented instances of some of these girls 'progressing' to hard-core pornography, prostitution etc., and other reports are there to be found of photographers being prosecuted and imprisoned, even in Russia! I'm certain that you can find as much information as I did, if you only bothered to look?
So. Confession time.
I worked within this 'industry' professionally for more than 20 years, and saw at first hand the damage that WAS done to (mostly) young women. The longer I was involved, the worse it got, until I could stomach the hypocrisy no more and left the industry entirely.
I'll make no secret of this; during that period of time, several people were given jail sentences as a result of police investigation instigated by me. I'm loathe to call them photographers, although that was the 'trade' they plied at the time of their demise.
Without exception, these people were all released, and went straight back to their old tricks. That part of this 'industry' is a cesspit: no 2 ways about it!
It's a very simple fact. These models ARE exploited, some to a much worse degree than others.
Did I personally ever exploit anyone? Probably, to some degree, though everyone I ever paid directly got way over the agency rate, and were usually earning a much better hourly rate than I was: your monthly rate was frequently eclipsed by what some of them were paid daily!
I always tried to make sure that people were treated properly, and fairly; I'm very happy that I can still count many of the girls as friends, years later.
Perhaps now I feel a little like the poacher-turned-gamekeeper? :-)
Were YOU exploited? IMHO, yes; it's very common within the medical professions at that stage in your career.
It didn't bother you enough to actually do anything about it though...
I KNOW that exploitation seems to be a way of life for many, on a world-wide basis...
But that still does not make it right, or acceptable.
Well said, Angel, and thank you for being candid about your involvement.
It's refreshing (though disturbing) to hear the blunt truth from someone who has actually walked the path, rather than read the book, or simply hit the Google button!
Myself, I've just seen the movie...
"I'm no pretender."
much talk of exploitation but its like talking about god, you can apply an emotional term to anything, especially if you throw in that you are an authority, but without explaining it its meaningless, didnt Ecclesiastes say all is exploitation?
A bit about me, since it's been brought on:
The last of my internships, in a new hospital, was officially for a residentship and becoming a specialist after my graduation. I had passed their entrance exam with flying colors -not to brag, the competition really wasn't tough-, and then they started making shaky excuses that before I was taken for a guaranteed specialization residentship, somehow I had to spend a year in internship first. "Lack of free options", or some such crap. In spite of my top ranking. (Why me and only me? Go figure. Probably a matter of typical lebanese unadmitted communautarism.) Officially, these internships are for learning and practicing, gaining knowledge and experience, at least in part. In reality, we were given NOTHING useful to do. Chores, running errands, filling pointless paperwork, and serving as an ego-boosting doormat for beginner Residents less competent than me, for the Doctors, and even for the nurses. That's NOT what I had signed for. Halfway through that "mere formality" year, I was sacked in a most shameful way... shameful for those stooping to such methods, not for me; they practically admitted that my dedication made the big Doctors look bad by comparison so I "had to go". Among other things. "You spend too much time with every patient", to quote the boss word for word. Sure, I did inform him that what he called "spending" I called "giving", and that all my work WAS being done, but I knew he wouldn't care.
Not to mention my getting transfered from ICU on the morning of the very first day because, after making sure of telling my colleague what I was going to do, I took a quick bathroom break. It was the best moment for it, since there were two top Residents present in the service at that time, along with my colleague Intern. When I returned, the snarly Chief Resident, who had just wasted a whole sitting hour listing us our frantic duties (24 hours worth of work to fit in our 9 hour shifts) and giving us pointless "homework" on top (impossible to meet demands, that's the basis of worker exploitation), declared when he saw mw that in ICU I had to be available at every moment, "so get out of here, I don't want to see you ever again". Not that I minded one bit getting transfered from under that psycho's authority.
There were also regular crazy accusations, like my "not even examining" patients that turned out to be non-existent. Just to give you a brief Daliesque picture. Make that Kafkaian.
They almost caused me to miss my own brother's wedding, by decreeing that "the night shift list can absolutely not be modified", even if a colleague was more than willing to swap. This, from people to whom I volunteered on my third day to take a double on call night shift because THEY HAD BLOODY FORGOTTEN TO NAME ANYBODY FOR THAT DAY in their joke of a list, and I didn't even find time to phone home and tell my parents that evening until they were in panic at 9PM.
I worked with a dedication which you could frankly call enthusiasm, but it was like giving Swiss chocolate to the carrion-eating vultures.
Incidentally, in Lebanon, as you can easily imagine, there are few things more sacred that your brother's wedding...
Is it any wonder that this place lost its status as University Hospital?
But anyway, this is why I'm a GP today. I decided that my basic dignity and in fact my physical well-being were not worth the trouble of trying another dive in that sort of mafia-ruled administrative cesspool.
[Insert paragraph break here]
As for "It didn't bother you enough to actually do anything about it though"... ha ha ha, my dear Angel. Your candor so touches and amuses me! How fresh, how deliciously naive. You actually think THERE IS ANYTHING TO BE DONE IN LEBANON? That we have any vaguely plausible Justice System? I well know that France has very strict laws about work harassment, but that's an actual nation, civilized and all.
FYI, the very official assassin of our President Beshir Gemayel, in the early Eighties, now has a junior school named after him for being the hero who planted that bomb... Talk about the Herostratus syndrome!
I didn't "let it go" out of serenity, buddy. Just out of basic realism.
And I've seen things, daily scenes of exploitation, around me, that make my own experience absolutely trivial by comparison. Many people, probably the majority, treat their employees in a way they wouldn't treat their own dog. (And people in these parts are not overly respectful of dogs, either! "Dog" is one of our most demeaning insults.)
Out of mercy, I'll spare you the details. I feel ashamed as a human being, from just having WITNESSED it and belonging to the same phylogenetic genus as those Yahoos.
So I know a thing or two about exploitation...
Which reminds me. I think one of the main annoyances of my former slave-drivers was that they couldn't break my spirit, make me submissive or anything. Among my peers, I was highly liked during that period, in great part because I was the one always lifting their spirits with my cheerfluness, sharing the advice of my experience every time they needed me, being there for support during delicate procedures, etc. I found no motive to forget my worth and feel like a nothing. Yeah, obviously, I wasn't aware I was committing THE most unforgivable crime of all. A moral crime against the noble principles and unwritten rules of factual slavery.
But don't go thinking that I'm bitter about it. Mostly, I'm just sarcastic with a sulfuric acid causticity. :-P
[End of the part about me]
[Now, more generally]
Angie, man, I'm not denying, or lessening, anything about what you tell us there, either.
It's just that widespread exploitation doesn't in any way prove that it's universal, and sully the rest along with it.
The sleazy image and social stigma associated with nudity or anything sexual contributes in major part, by outlawing it, to this domain being a lawless world. Society, first and foremost, bears the responsibility in CREATING the very conditions of human exploitation. It's got nothing to do with the activity itself. (Remember the Prohibition? It MADE drinking alcohol a criminal activity and a basic health risk from adulterated booze!)
The more official and legitimate a person's activity, the lesser the chances of the worst going on. Do you honestly know many sites more official and legitimate than Domai, not to mention any that are LESS smutty? Shoot, not even "the institution" which is Playboy!
I'm a born judge of character. I've got a definite gift for empathy, for perceiving other's feelings, for reading a face. (And I can tell you, the absolutely ugliest face is that of Hate. It's universal.) With most of the Domai models -I don't have time to check them ALL out- I don't "see" any signs of exploitation. That's just it. I do believe the webmaster we're talking about here isn't in the remotest way a sleazebag. Not to mention (okay, I *AM* actually mentioning it!) that I know him quite well personally now, and I've got a pretty good and reliable picture of who he truly is. An intimately decent and respectful person, among other things. In fact, one of the absolutely most respectful people I've met -or more like "spoken with"- in person.
But I'm not imposing this opinion on anybody else. :-)
You can trust me on this, or you can travel on your own on another road. (Like the one labeld "here be Dragons". ;-)
You know, not every nude photographer, or mainstream movie producer, is a drooling predator bent solely on bedding a maximum number of hapless, helpless women. There's a part of sleaze, and there's a part of authenticity. Nude paintings and statues of women, men, children... are a vastly recognized form of totally valid, legitimate, respected art since many centuries. It's not all panting erotica or slutty porno.
Erotica itself can be the lamest, most boring thing in the world, or be very, very aesthetic. In fact, the same goes for explicit sex. "Typical" porn is just its dominant and most noticed aspect.
[Your adult movie marathon will return shortly, stay tuned.]
Have you seen Sex and Lucia? It's VERY "hot", but it's a romantic movie. And I found the sex scenes very beautiful. Very "authentic". France is very worried these days that many young men are "discovering" about sex through porno movies, and this worry is based entirely on the greatly deformed image of sexuality conveyed by this standardized "junk food of copulation". It's not about explicitness, it's about the spirit. Same goes for the nude photos of Domai.
I've noticed one thing about Hegre's photos, or those of Femjoy, or Met-Art (all are generous in free samples): it seems as if 98% of the photos follow the main rule of "spread them, show us the genitals, be SEXY, that's what people pay for". It's just not the same spirit. Natural smiles there are the exception. On Domai, they're the main rule. (BTW, how many photos of Domai DO show the intimate regions? Not zero, not all, a reasonable proportion treating ALL the body with a natural, guilt-free attitude. No lewd emphasis, no hypocritical dissimulation.)
It's subtle to some, but it's clear to he who's good at noticing: Eolake neither titillates through very careful suggestiveness-and-frustration, nor turns on with smutty gynaecologic exhibitionism. It's all about a different, new perspective. Not an unprecedented one, but still VERY new.
I believe we all immediately agree on firmly condemning exploitation. Where most people soon disagree, is whether one thing or another significantly defines as exploitation.
There ARE some women who choose nude modeling because they like showing and sharing the beauty of their bodies. Or because they want to liberate themselves from the suffocating shell of socially-imposed body shame. There ARE women who love having sex, and will either act in porno (clearly having FUN), or become high-end escorts/prostitutes. Check out the Netherlands for some easy to find examples. They're not the majority, by far, but they do exist. (Then again, are ethical Doctors the majority?...)
From her lengthy and very relaxed interview about the film 9 songs (which I also found rather touching, BTW), it seems that Margo Stilley didn't feel one bit exploited. That supremely sexual movie was fresh, tender, and I dare say rather cute. Again, JMO.
Let us wisely pick our fights, so that our efforts will be usefully deployed.
No offense meant, but my personal, subjective opinion is that, by calling Mr Eolake Stobblehouse an exploiter (or accomplice to), you're not spending your praiseworthy efforts on a relevant cause. Me, I trust him to stay vigilant on the working conditions of the models, exactly like he's very vigilant about their age certificates. Even though it's unsure he legally NEEDS to, since there is no sexual activity involved or even suggested, it's all purely innocent nudity.
Hey, to him it's probably routine procedure and paperwork by now. Most likely, if everything is in order as usual, then all's proper and fine. Definitely not the bottom of the basket here. Yes, clearly you've SEEN the bottom of the basket, Angel. Which all the more makes me surprised that you focus on the least debatable of all photo sites that I know.
And, at the risk of repeating what countless people said before me, Domai is the first site of nude women which I'm not only unashamed, but proud to show to others.
[Coffee and bathroom break. Be right back, boss.]
Sukiho pointed out what I already knew, but wasn't aware that the Bible itself had talked about it. (It really IS a big book!) Philosophically or technically speaking, anything CAN be considered as exploitation. Are wealthy celebrities exploiting the willingness of the public to pay for their movies/music, or is the public exploiting the very life of celebrities by relentlessly feeding their lowly egoes with gossip and paparazzi material? Do we help others out of true generosity, of simply because it makes US feel good to be "noble"? Or even worse, in the sole hope of getting rewarded by God for being good, because we want to go to Heaven? Is our love for our children more than genetic instinct and the desire to become in a way immortal through them? There can always be room for doubt, if you insist.
The Universe is intrinsically selfish. The lions feeding on zebras can be considered as absolute exploitation. Or conversely, you could also consider that they keep the species healthy by constantly removing the sickly, and that by limiting their demography they prevent them from starving after eating all the vegetation in a continent where droughts are regular. Being killed by lion is far more merciful than the slow horrible agony of thirst and starvation (let's not forget the water's limited too). Speaking of plant life, we breathe oxygen thanks to the millions of years of plants producing it from CO2, and yet we also eat these plants. Save for those giant venus flytraps in Tarzan movies, who fight back... How many of us are convinced and strict vegetarians out of consideration for animals? For my part, I admit being born an omnivore, I accept my intrinsic biological nature and the moral questioning it brings. No God-created predator is intrinsically evil, and neither are we for being born that way.
If these here Domai women are properly paid and not coerced into doing this, it's within the reasonable norms of the way the Cosmos works. And I do believe they are. Again, just MY opinion.
Before criticizing a man simply because "he makes a living from nude photos", perhaps we should focus on getting a legal frame installed for all traditionally stigmatized "immoral" activities, so that exploitation could be efficiently fought. Isn't ensuring people's completely free choice to do or not do this more important than complaining about the way things are today?
I don't necessarily agree with Kent McManigal's "truly anarchic" ideology. But I deeply respect that the man tried to ACT for his beliefs, that he didn't just stand there and talk and gripe about it. He was a Presidential candidate in the USA. How many took THEIR political commitment that far?
Talking is good to trade and spread ideas. To think things over. Declaring "this is all exploitation, period, and therefore you're scum", that's not very constructive debate. In fact, that's not debate at all. A real debate would go something like this: "Mister Stobblehouse, can you certify that your models are treated properly? How much do they get paid? What are their working conditions?"
Incidentally, Eolake has already given us several answers to such questions. I quote from memory: "Most of these girls do it for a short time for some extra money, so it's nearly impossible to go back for an old model because members would love to see more of her."
It's a weird sort of slave, who come and go as they please, no?...
I hope all this talk brought some useful reflection and information, and wasn't just a bloated bilious boasting bloke's abominably boring bizarre banter of blah-blah. ;-)
Buh-bye now.
End of Season Two.
"Exploitation? Well, let me tell you about exploitation, sonny! Why, in MY days, back in Beirut during the war, yatta yatta..."
Pascal is a little long winded but I do not disagree with him on what he has to say.
People are always looking to improve their life situation. That is the motivation to work harder, improve their education and rise up the social ladder.
If anyone is looking for down trodden people to fight for. Then I am sure that you will find
people in more desperate situations than these models on display at DOMAI.
You have to pick your battles to fight. I don't see a need to resort to name calling or make accusations of people on this blog.
It only makes you sound immature.
Joe
[pant] Long winded? [pant] You don't say! [pant] I'm still [pant] out of breath. [pant] But I think [pant] it was really [pant] worth it. [pant] JM [pant] HO.
[pant]
P.S.: Joe, you're -relatively- new on this blog, but my trademark long-windedness is what instantly made me famous on an old discussion about Euthanasia. (A great read if you're in solitary confinement for a couple of weeks.)
[pant]
I have followed the beginning of the discussion. And then didn't read it all, sorry, but there were were some thoughts that came to my mind.
I can see on the picture that the photographer and the model are both women. (Both names are written below.) So the idea of male exploiting female does not apply to this case.
I am a woman and as a photographer I have made a few series of nudes. First with a friend who is dancer, and who is very happy with the pictures. She had posed for painters, and after the first series we looked together at the pictures and discussed them, and that helped me to design the second shooting.
Then I made another series with a girl who wanted pictures for her book. That was quite a funny encounter too.
For both of these girls, I gave them beautiful pictures, they are proud of them, and I am happy of the pictures...
And, by the way, I think there are quite more humiliating jobs. With posing for domai-like pictures, you are not becoming a prostitute. It is quite like posing for a painter. I think it is more rewarding than to work in a MacDonalds, for example.
There are always different situations, and always important not to judge too quickly.
Thank you very much. Food for thought.
I find the idea that women shouldnt be prostitutes or even pose nude because its self exploitation very strange, I know it goes on in many societies today, mostly fundamental religious societies, but I like to think we live in a society where most people, including woman, are able to make their own decisions once they reach adulthood
So Sukiho, you would not be the slightest bit concerned / perturbed / dismayed if your mother / sister / daughter chose to work as a prostitute?
"Food for thought."
And tastier than the one you'd serve if you worked at MacDonalds! :-)
In many places I know, simply posing nude is declared "pornography", and appearing naked in a movie "prostitution".
And I won't even get into the whole matter of young and poor marrying old and rich. Too many name-calling opportunities.
Basically, you cannot exploit YOURSELF.
And whether the idea of someone close to me doing certain things bothers me or not, is irrelevant to their intrinsic freedom. As long as they're adults and mentally normal, they are fully free, period. Only in barbarically primitive mentalities such as Arab countries or Pakistan, can one person's life choices be dictated by the family that literally owns their destiny. Such as "shari'aa-legally" selling daughters in marriage at 13 or at 9.
During the civil war, my father worked on Gulf construction sites, and got to know Pakistani workers more than he ever wanted to know. "Savages" is not an insult: rather often, it's an objective statement! :-(
What I do mind, a lot, always, is a person being exploited by another when they don't want to. The vast majority of today's prostitution bothers me for one sole reason: not because it's paid/commercial sex, but because these women are factually the slaves of their pimps, and treated horribly through coercion, blackmail, and forcing them to become drug addicts. What I can only object with every fiber of my being, is stomping on individual liberties.
It's rather hard to display a Domai smile under such circumstances...
And since they ARE all happily smiling... you draw your own conclusions. :-)
Remember that high-end escort girl company in the USA, whose managing woman got sued and condemned recently? It wasn't for pimping, because the girls weren't exploited. She got jailed for tax fraud. Not paying her business dues to the IRS. The Lay... I mean the Law's the Law, and its name is Dredd.
OK, Lord Stobblehouse, I've done all my blogging for tonight, and I've even remembered to insert several pretend smileys. Now can I have food, drink, and go to bed? My sport shoes making shift only starts in five hours...
Please?
"And whether the idea of someone close to me doing certain things bothers me or not, is irrelevant to their intrinsic freedom."
That's a key sentence if I ever heard it.
"how would you feel if your daughter married a ______?"
Who gives a shit?
"Who gives a shit?"
The anally retentive, perhaps? But only after you've asked them to give it insistently enough! ;-)
That's how they get their kicks.
Three guesses WHERE they like to receive their kicks...
DA, I dont think I need the state to punish my friends if they happen do things that concern, perturb or dismay me. you end up with societies like Sudan where men are allowed to rip girls shirts off to make sure they arnt wearing bras.
If you are looking for exploitation. This is what comes to my mind.
http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=2978
Don't see any smiles in this group.
As long as you are in control of your body and your labor. Then I don't see that it should be of concern to others.
It is when you lose control. Say to a pimp or an agent or fear of physical harm.
Joe
Mmmmm... This is an old post, but I happened to stumble accross it today.
Much talk about exploitation, righfulness, etc.
Posing naked is a job like any other. Paid, like any other. And much easier than most. How can it be exploitation? How is it in any way better to die with your lungs full of whatever type of dust you breathe in whatever type of mine? How is it better to work in a sweatshop, for example, hidden from everybody, in constant fear of being deported if spotted?
Because you show skin?
Why is it that showing your naked body is a "sin"?
Come on! Stop your hypocritical puritanism! Many people actually like working in the pornographic industry, for instance. I fail to see how unsing your body as a form of art can in any way be considered exploitation.
Who hasn't admired a statue from, say, Michelangelo? I'm sure they didn't get all those muscular forms from their imagination. They must have had models. Has anyone called that exploitation?
My wife and I often take pictures of each other naked. We haven't published them anywhere, but if we did... would we be exploiting ourselves? What about all those self-shots of girls you see all over the place? They are voluntarily posted. Are they exploiting themselves? Is there such a thing as "self-exploitation"?
The mere word "exploitation" implies a relationship between much work and little pay. Is this the case here?
Luckily for many, apparently sinful for a few, the body of the woman is a very beautiful thing. If they decide to share it with others, shut up and watch in silence, or turn around and go do whatever you think is "proper" and "clean".
But don't look at the images until you're tired, and then raise a scandal because you had the opportunity to see those images...
Just be sure to always stay careful with these personal photos you take. Should they in some way end up in the hands of a stranger, say, in a lost cellphone, stolen camera, after the "visit" of a burglar, or having your PC repaired by someone a little nosy, you can safely bet they'll soon be all over the internet. So, be mindful of how and where you store them.
I've read authentic stories of housewives whose stolen intimate photos were sold to porn sites, complete with her full ID in the filename. Not pleasant if it was done without your consent... but virtually impossible to undo. And can show up when a prospective employer googles your name for some background.
It says in the Gospel that one day all will be revealed, no secret shall be kept. To me, this is a very god reason to not be judgemental, to just let people be imperfect themselves and all, but many people in this world aren't as... "christian" as me.
And, ironically, they're often the same ones hiding the most shameful secrets, like infidelity or abusing their children. In old French, the word "cagot" meant all at once a hooded person, a bigot, and a hypocrite.
I love old French. :-)
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