I found this obscure interview with Gary Renard. I post it here because apparently Evolve Magazine has disappeared, and the interview is too good to be lost. (I got it from the Google cache.)
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Power Of Source, which is about Gary's book and A Course In Miracles and about non-duality.
Spirituality for Smart Alecksby Carl McColman
WITHIN A TWENTY-FIVE YEAR PERIOD IN THE MIDST of the last century two spiritual texts emerged that arguably could redefine Christianity and perhaps even world spirituality. Those two texts are A Course in Miracles, channeled by Helen Schucman in the late 1960s; and the Gospel of Thomas, an ancient Gnostic text that had been lost for centuries before being rediscovered in the Egyptian desert in 1945.
Fascinating similarities link these two books: both claim to contain the actual words of Jesus Christ, yet the ideas found in these books have the power to revolutionize old dogmas about Jesus and the Christian tradition. Both books “emerged” under wondrous circumstances: a centuries-old manuscript is found preserved in a desert cave, while a 1200-page exploration of miracles comes to light through the channeled work of a skeptical modern psychologist. Still, on the surface it seems these two books couldn’t be more different. The Gospel of Thomas is short enough to read in a single sitting, while A Course in Miracles requires at least a year to be properly studied. Thomas’ gospel is an ancient manuscript long thought lost; the Course is a psychologically savvy modern text that comes from New York City.
So just what do these strangely similar yet obviously different texts have in common? One startling and intriguing answer to this question comes from Gary Renard’s entertaining and insightful exploration of his personal spiritual journey, The Disappearance of the Universe. Skeptics who have grown tired of yet another book of teachings-by-ascended-masters might be tempted to dismiss Renard’s story of encountering two remarkable spirits named Arten and Pursah, who appear in bodily form in his living room in late 1992, and over the ensuing decade instruct him on a variety of topics. Early on, these two Bodhisattva-like sages help Renard find a surprising link between A Course in Miracles, The Gospel of Thomas and his own personal journey. But The Disappearance of the Universe is far more than one man’s memoir?in Renard’s sometimes-graceful, sometimes-clumsy journey toward spiritual maturity, truly universal themes and insights emerge. Anyone who comes to this book with an open mind and an open heart can find much in Renard’s journey that will speak to their own.
After reading his book and interviewing him, I’ve come to think of Gary Renard as the “bad boy” of contemporary metaphysical scene. Part of this comes from Gary’s own sometimes-irreverent wit (asked about his faith background, he quips “I have no religious affiliation, except that in the winter I’m a Buddhist and in the summer I’m a nudist.”), but it’s also clearly depicted in his book, where he challenges his teachers with sarcasm, skepticism, and various playful and not-so-playful responses to their radical spiritual ideas.
I asked Gary if he’s a natural born smart aleck. “Well, yes; that’s actually a part of my defense when I get a little bit nervous, but I’m not always like that! But it does show up sometimes, it even shows up in my workshops, but it’s in the spirit of good fun.” However, he goes to ponder how spiritual seekers can sometimes overlook humor.
“I’ve been to study group meetings since the book came out, and people tell me that my book reminds them of the way they actually talk. Sometimes they’re not happy about what’s being said, so sometimes they do make those kinds of smart-aleck comments. It’s just a way of getting to the ideas that aren’t always easy to accept at first.”
Renard sees humor as actually playing an important role in the both the style and the content of his message. “When [my teachers] appeared to me as people, I would have a [humorous] back and forth conversation with them. They knew that if by appearing to me in human form, that our conversations would therefore be more human. And I think that’s important, because a lot of the spiritual teachings that we have today seem to be coming from a place above the world?they’re very nice, but a lot of them are boring, frankly, in my opinion.
You have a lot of teachings that are scholarly or biblical, but they don’t seem to be put in a way that people really talk. People who read my book might be taken aback by it because they’re not used to seeing a spiritual book written that way.” But this startling spiritual humor has its place: “My teachers said that they are reverent?for God and Spirit. When you look at what they’re teaching, that’s the only thing that’s real anyway. They’re very consistent about their reverence toward God and Spirit, which in their opinion is reality, and everything else isn’t worthy of reverence. According to them, masters like Jesus were asking us to choose between one of two things, and only one of them is real. So why be reverent or have a high opinion of that which we are actually being taught to choose against? I think what my teachers are saying is, ‘Look, not only do you take the world too damn seriously, but if you really examine it close up, this world can not be taken seriously!’”
Asked if he could offer a glimpse into the heart of his message, Renard replaced his signature playful humor with an earnest discussion of the core metaphysics of A Course in Miracles. “ We have to reverse the thinking of the world. We think that what we’re seeing with our physical eyes is real, while the mind is hidden?something we don’t think about all that much. But in truth it’s the mind that’s important, because it functions like a movie projector, and the ‘screen’ [of the physical universe] that we’re seeing is just the effect?not the cause. Once we understand that, we can realize that the Universe is all a trick. Albert Einstein described the human experience as ‘an optical delusion of the consciousness.’
Understanding the illusory nature of the physical universe is essential to discovering how the secret to spiritual joy lies within us. “A Course in Miracles calls itself a course in cause, not in effect. It attempts to restore to the mind the function of causation.” In other words, when we feel like life has created problems for us, we are ignoring the vital role that our minds have in creating our own experiences. “It’s really a trick when we’re so busy and we have all kinds of problems?it’s a trick meant to distract us from where the answer is, which is in the mind, which is where the Holy Spirit is. Once we understand this then we can say, ‘Okay, I’m willing to take 15 minutes or a half an hour a day, and get control over my own mind.’ In doing that we learn that the way to undo the ego is in the way that we look at things, and interpret things.” Given that the key to enlightenment is in changing how we see things, Renard cautions against spiritual materialism: “With all the books out there, people think that the more spiritual information that you put into your head, the more you learn, the more enlightened you are. And ironically, that’s not true. The way to really undo the ego and become enlightened is by changing the way that you think about things, and how you look at things.”
Renard compares the spiritual life to learning how to play a musical instrument. It’s one thing to read books on playing the guitar, but truly mastering the instrument requires putting the book down?and practicing. “No matter how much information you put into your head, it won’t do you a bit of good if you don’t apply it?to what you’re looking at and what you’re seeing. That’s where spiritual practice and discipline come in. A Course in Miracles stands with Buddhism as the two major forms of mind training in the world. According to my teachers and also the Course, the mind has to be retrained, because right now it judges automatically. You can see this everywhere?everybody’s in a reactionary state, you can hardly walk down the street without making somebody angry. Everybody’s in a reactive state because they don’t realize how they’re thinking is so automatic and mechanical; they don’t even realize it when they’re judging or attacking other people, they just think they’re right.
“A Course in Miracles says that the mind has to be retrained. The way my teachers put it, eventually you go from a place where you are judging automatically to where you forgive automatically. That’s not a small change! But in so doing that, you will completely change the way you feel about yourself. How we feel about and experience ourselves is not determined by what others think of us or how they look at us?even though we think that that’s important. But in truth, how I’ll feel about and experience myself is really determined by how I look at the world.”
But the magic of A Course in Miracles lies in how it goes beyond merely changing our attitude to improve our feelings. This stems from its core metaphysical claim that all of us are, in essence, one with God. “Whatever we think about other people is really a message that we are sending into the unconscious mind about ourselves. So if we’re smart enough not to judge and condemn others?like the Buddha who had no judgment, and Jesus who not only had no judgment, but who had total love for everyone, and saw everyone as innocent and totally worthy of being with God?then that is the exact message that we would be sending into our own unconscious mind and that’s exactly how we would come to eventually feel and experience ourselves.”
Fascinated by this hopeful way of understanding the world, I asked Gary how to put such love and non-judgment into action. He responded by noting that there are two ways of undoing the experience of separation from God. “First, in the morning take some quiet time, 5 or 10 minutes, and forget about all the things you think you need or have to do or want. Just join with God in a state of meditation, with no words, and spend some quiet time with God?just joining with the light of God and feeling totally unlimited and getting lost in his love. If you do that every day, there is an aftereffect of inspiration. You will receive other gifts?not as physical miracles, but as inspiration in the mind that can lead to miracles.
“The other major way of undoing the sense of separation is through the practice of forgiveness. Forgiving others leads to an experience of rejoining with yourself and feeling whole again.” Such unconditional forgiveness may not be easy, but Renard suggests it is the core reason for being.
“My teachers didn’t always tell me that much about the future, because they said they didn’t want to deprive me of my forgiveness lessons! To which I felt like saying, ‘Thanks a lot!’ And at the same time, I understand that what they’re saying about that is good for me. Everything that happens?and it doesn’t matter how much your life appears to change?is really all for the same purpose; it’s all for forgiveness.”
I must confess: I am naturally a skeptic who feels more comfortable studying ancient mystical writings than pondering new revelations that may or may not be anything more than the ego-projections of the spiritual teacher of the month. Reading The Disappearance of the Universe with all of my “prove-it” defenses operational, I was genuinely touched by its humorous and yet earnest introduction to the metaphysics of A Course in Miracles and its elegant plea for a spirituality of total forgiveness. Believe what you will about Arten, Pursah, and Gary Renard. But their message of forgiveness, love, and taking life a little less seriously is timely, important, and wise.
Carl McColman is a freelance writer and spiritual teacher based in Atlanta, GA. His most recent book is 366 Celt: A Year and a Day of Celtic Wisdom and Lore (Element, 2005).
What she did with Pink Floyds "Mother" in the Berlin Wall concert was fantastic.
Wears her heart on her sleeve, and has a beautiful voice.
She is one of a kind.
With her combativeness combined with her emotional rawness, it's little wonder she got hurt and very introverted. A pity it took the fun edge out of her songs too. Stuff like Mandinka and Jump In The River was a lot more fun than 300 songs lamenting the Irish people's raw deal.