Kramer: "Karate is a lifelong pursuit of balance and harmony."
Jerry: "But with kicking and punching."
That about says it.
It took me a loooong time to become a fan of the Seinfeld show, because I just hated the cold-hearted, tiny-minded characters. But still, it's very funny. And lately I've been applying the old philosophy that anything that makes me react like that, has to have a mirror quality inside myself which I need to work on. Seems to work. :)
Did you know Jerry had 75 girlfriends during the run of the show? (The fictional Jerry of course. The real one was very busy indeed.) Seventy-five. I think that's more women than I've shook hands with.
And all of them so stunningly gorgeous. It makes you wonder what the heck casting directors on other shows and films are doing.
26 comments:
Kramer: "Karate is a lifelong pursuit of balance and harmony."
Jerry: "But with kicking and punching."
Is this supposed to be funny somehow? I don't get it.
If the implication is that balance & harmony and kicking & punching are mutually exclusive then whoever wrote this doesn't have the slightest understanding about karate.
Perhaps for some definitions of "harmony". But if you take "a lifelong pursuit of balance and harmony" to mean the pursuit towards living in peace with all the world, then I think the irony is clear.
Also, "a lifelong pursuit of balance and harmony" is clearly something advanced and mature, while "kicking and punching" is something any three-year old will engage in and enjoy.
There is no irony there.
If you think that Karate, or indeed any martial art, has anything to do with violence or three year olds, then you're sorely mistaken.
Here are the first two definitions from online dictionaries:
karate (kə-rä'tē)
n.
A Japanese art of self-defense in which sharp blows and kicks are administered to pressure-sensitive points on the body of an opponent.
[Japanese : kara, empty + te, hand.]
---
Reference > Britannica Concise Encyclopedia
karate:
Martial art in which an attacker is disabled by crippling kicks and punches. Emphasis is on concentration of as much of the body's power as possible at the point and instant of impact.
If you think that Karate, or indeed any martial art, has anything to do with violence or three year olds, then you're sorely mistaken.
No, you are.
karate (kə-rä'tē)
n.
A Japanese art of self-defense in which sharp blows and kicks are administered to pressure-sensitive points on the body of an opponent.
[Japanese : kara, empty + te, hand.]
---
Reference > Britannica Concise Encyclopedia
karate:
Martial art in which an attacker is disabled by crippling kicks and punches. Emphasis is on concentration of as much of the body's power as possible at the point and instant of impact.
It doesn't even work as self-defence - if things like UFC, K1, and others like them have shown us. Calling boxing "The Sweet Science" didn't make it any less of a blood sport. (That term existed for it back when it was really just an all-in, no-rules brawl.)
Don't forget the weapons used in Karate either. Unlike Aikido they don't at least train with swords, but you've got sai, tonfa, nunchaku ("cool but useless"), and others. Somehow wielding weapons and hitting other people is supposed to be a path to inner peace? Please. A person would have to be spectacularly stupid to believe that.
If you're only interested in self-defence, fine. (Although Krav Maga would probably be a better choice for that.) Don't pretend there's some higher dimension to it.
Those are superficial, western interpretations of the discipline. It's like defining the game of chess to be a "form of war were the object is to cause as much casualities to enemy troops as possible, ultimately incapacitating their leader."
After you understand what Karate is about you will see no discrepancy (let alone irony) in the discipline being "an art of self-defense in which sharp blows and kicks are administered" and "a lifelong pursuit of balance and harmony" at the same time.
When I practised Karate I had the honour of working with some of the most peaceful and balanced human beings I've ever met. It was quite a humbling experience.
Wikipedia says about the philosophy of Karate:
The "kara" of Karate-do was also interpreted by Gichin Funakoshi to mean "to purge [oneself] of selfish and evil thoughts, for only with a clear mind and conscience can [the practitioner] understand that [knowledge] which he receives." Funakoshi also believed that one should be "inwardly humble and outwardly gentle." Only through humility could one be open to Karate's many lessons, by listening and being receptive to criticism. He considered courtesy of prime importance. He believed that "Karate is properly applied only in those rare situations in which one really must either down another or be downed by him." To Funakoshi, it was not unusual for a practitioner to use Karate for real perhaps once in a lifetime, as Karate practitioners should "never be easily drawn into a fight." To him, one strike by an expert could mean either life or death. He who misuses the techniques brings dishonor upon himself. He also believed in conviction, that in "time of grave public crisis, one must have the courage...to face a million and one opponents." He believed that indecisiveness was a shameful trait.
TTL, you're wrong, and it's lame to rely on the old "superficial, western interpretations" argument. Yeah, the West is always so clueless. Right, right. The wise, wise East, eh? Sure!
It's great if you trained with some of the "most peaceful and balanced human beings," that is meaningless. Ask yourself what the purpose of it is, and look at it's history.
Did you know Jerry had 75 girlfriends during the run of the show? (The fictional Jerry of course. The real one was very busy indeed.) Seventy-five. I think that's more women than I've shook hands with.
And all of them so stunningly gorgeous. It makes you wonder what the heck casting directors on other shows and films are doing.
Yeah, but The Fonz still has the record.
(Some of those girls the real Jerry could never have got. Especially the one...you know, "They're real and they're spectacular!")
"Some of those girls the real Jerry could never have got."
... Being the creator and star of the most successful TV show of the nineties? I don't think many!
... I wonder about Terry Hatcher, how spectacular they really were. Somebody sent me a picture of her topless on a balcony, they were not all that.
joe dick said: Yeah, the West is always so clueless.
Yes. In particular about Eastern disciplines.
The wise, wise East, eh?
Yes. For example -- keeping in the subject of the discussion -- the history of martial arts is thousands of years old. As such there's a lot more in there than meets the eye. Same goes for Yoga (India's version of essentially the same thing). The history of it is thousands of years old. Only in very recent years has the West discovered that it is a terrific discipline for general health and balance.
But in answer to your more general East vs. West comparison, I can only say that Western civilisation as we know it originated in the East, the place now known as Irak. In contrast, the country widely regarded as the pinnacle of Western "culture" is the US.
And what is the contribution of the West to the cradle of its civilisation? Flatten the place down with bombs, contaminating it with DU and allowing its museums to be looted.
Don't you wish they'd been practising martial arts instead?
It's great if you trained with some of the "most peaceful and balanced human beings," that is meaningless. Ask yourself what the purpose of it is, and look at it's history.
Q.E.D.
I admit I was a little harsh, the thing is I had the misfortune of training with people who did karate for the wrong reasons. Still, you can get that "peaceful and balanced" thing without learning to punch and kick. I wouldn't say that being able to get both is good, but I stand by what I said about karate not really working - we've seen in Ultimate Fighting Championship, and Japan's own K-1 tournament that relying on a single discipline for self-defence doesn't work, at least not against top-conditioned pros. Try some kind of meditation or yoga or something for the inner peace, and something like Krav Maga for self-defence.
In contrast, the country widely regarded as the pinnacle of Western "culture" is the US.
What?! Maybe they see themselves that way, but no one else does. They are not the pinnacle.
But in answer to your more general East vs. West comparison, I can only say that Western civilisation as we know it originated in the East, the place now known as Irak.
The Middle East is not THE EAST, it's not Asia. Iraq and Egypt are the centres of civilization, and the Greeks and Romans have done far more to shape our way of thinking. It is a different way of thinking, but certainly not inferior.
... Being the creator and star of the most successful TV show of the nineties? I don't think many!
The real Jerry by that point could have got almost anyone he wanted, but he was playing a fantasy world version of the real guy before he hit it "mega big, bigger than the biggest thing ever" as Zaphod put it. Jerry, sans money and fame, would not have got that many gorgeous girls.
... I wonder about Terry Hatcher, how spectacular they really were. Somebody sent me a picture of her topless on a balcony, they were not all that.
They are definitely nothing special in that pic. When was it taken though? If it's recent, she's in her 40s now. Maybe her cans were more impressive at the time she did the show. She was pretty hot in Lois & Clark too.
Jerry got famous because of his wit and personality and perhaps a lucky break or two. This is also the primary reason he could have nearly any woman he desired, although fame and fortune can certainly help.
It's the intangible factors that attract people to each other. There's enough hot chicks with fat guys that this should be glaringly obvious. This isn't even taking into account the many variances in personality that people possess. Not all women care about wealth or fame, and they're not anymore likely to care just because they're pretty. (Based on their true personality alone. Societal influences can blur the line between what one wants and what one thinks he/she wants.)
The guys that go on and on about how they want to be with a beautiful woman but can't because they're poor, ugly, and they smell funny are oblivious to the fact that the real reason for their singleness is their self-pity.
"... the thing is I had the misfortune of training with people who did karate for the wrong reasons."
There are always those. But typically they don't last very long. When doing it (anything in fact) for the wrong reasons, after discovering that it doesn't really work for that, one usually doesn't have the inclination to continue.
"Still, you can get that "peaceful and balanced" thing without learning to punch and kick."
Of course. Punching & kicking just happens to be the "theme" of this particular discipline. And this was my point when responding to Eolake. When you are not doing it yourself the punching and kicking is all you see. But for the person practising it it's very different. The point is in your engaging your mind and body 100% in the exercise. It then becomes a form of movement meditation with very therapeutic effects.
Sure, there are many other ways to become "peaceful and balanced". It was Eolake's implication that Karate wasn't suitable for this that I am rebutting.
"I stand by what I said about karate not really working ..."
It does not work very well for self-defence, I agree. For that there are other better disciplines. But it does work in other ways - there are many benefits. It nothing else it's a very effective way to stay fit.
By the way, a similar misconception exists about yoga. Many people assume the goal of yoga asana practise is to become limber. Becoming limber is merely a side effect. The goal is to get to know you.
Mr Miyagi: "I will teach you Karate when you can tell what the purpose of Karate is."
Daniel: "The purpose of Karate is to know how to fight."
Mr Miyagi: "No."
Daniel: "Um... The purpose of Karate is... to know how NOT to fight."
Mr Miyagi: "I will teach you Karate."
I have little life knowledge about martial arts, but I think I do understand their underlying philosophy.
Besides, to fight properly you need balance, both outer and inner. Inner confusion ruins your balance, and will make you lose a fight, because the difference between two equally powerful and skilled opponents is their focus.
I remember also a training scene from the past of Snake-Eyes, in GI-Joe: he is training with another "ninja", fencing under the eye of "the old master" and his brother "the young master".
While the opponents are still in the pre-fight stance, old master turns away to leave.
Young master: "Aren't you staying to see the result?"
Old master: "I know the result. Snake-Eyes has already won."
[Faster-than-the-eye whooshing movement, and then Snake-Eyes has a sliced sleeve.]
Young master: "Ah. You were mistaken. You over-estimated his skill."
Old master: "No. I under-estimated his honor. He let his comrade win the bout."
Not claiming to conclude the discussion, but some "oriental thoughts" to ponder here...
Humour aside (and I can appreciate the full flavor of the initial joke), there ARE some things in "that sort of culture" that frequently elude a fully Western-cultivated mind. If China behaved like the Bush gang, the world would already be completely afire today.
You might also be interested by Bruce Lee's page on Wikiquote.
The Western mentality about power is similar to chess: there has to be one winner and one loser. The Eastern much prefer to think like in Go-ban: nobody is destroyed, but it's all about tipping the balance of power in your favor. "Destroying the enemy king" is not their aim.
In Irak, the king (Saddam) was swiftly toppled and then executed. In chess terms, the USA won the match. But on the field, they have lost the balance of power, and even their Western minds are realizing that they won the war only to lose the battle for peace, à la Pyrrhus. They squashed the hornet queen, now the swarm is upon them, it's not playing by the rules the "victors" believed in.
"Rule number one in street fighting: there ARE no rules."
(And the Fight Club doesn't exist. ;-)
So, to coin my own pseudo-asian wisdom: "Karate is like the war in Iraq. You may strike the winning blow, and still lose face because you chose to strike."
Or, in more American terms: "Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld... a trio of unbalanced fools. A three-leged stool will always stand, but they are a-fallin'."
"Ask yourself what the purpose of it is, and look at its history."
I might have incomplete informations about this, but I believe the craft of the "empty hand" was invented by japanese fishermen, who needed to defend themselves against bandits but didn't have any real weapon available (or allowed to them). So initially, it was always about defense, not offense.
Not claiming that the principles are always upheld, not even "generally". Just defending the principles. Bush is a religious zealot, but he ain't upholding the principles of wise, wise Jesus either.
("But Saddam wasn't mah neighbor!" - G. W. Bush)
"Only in very recent years has the West discovered that [Yoga] is a terrific discipline for general health and balance."
And yet they only discovered and took a very specific part of Yoga. No way an ordinary Westerner can claim to know what "real" Yoga is.
"Don't you wish they'd been practising martial arts instead?"
As one very wise under-achiever once said, "yeah, well, I'd feel much safer if every general in the world had a cat on his lap like useless me!"
Joe Dick admitted...
"I had the misfortune of training with people who did karate for the wrong reasons."
Not your fault, they are many.
Like the bullies in Karate Kid.
(Uh, did I mention Karate Kid already? Don't remember...
Better safe than sorry then!)
"Still, you can get that "peaceful and balanced" thing without learning to punch and kick."
Stating the obvious here, oh venerable old wise man. (As it is written in your job description.)
I spent some time learning the basics of Judo, and then the facts of life took me in another direction. Plus, I wasn't born with a body for physical prowesses. But I believe -in all modesty- to have gone a reasonable way already on the path of peace and balance.
And anybody who gives me a dubious look will taste my de-ashi-barai, followed by an uki-goshi combo!
FINISH HIM!!! Mercy is for the weak! ):-o
"Maybe they see themselves that way, but no one else does. They are not the pinnacle."
Well, the only problem with your argumenting is, today they MAKE some of the world's criteria. It's called cultural hegemony.
And they are undoubtedly the pinnacle of something...
Mom? What's a "jingoism"?
"She was pretty hot in Lois & Clark too."
I find Terry sexy, but not because of her boobies.
So much for being a typical cyber-geek! :-)
Pascal wrote:
"Ask yourself what the purpose of it is, and look at its history."
That was a typo, but I figured Eolake didn't want me deleting and reposting messages anymore just because of a typo.
TTL wrote:
There are always those. But typically they don't last very long.
These guys seem to have. They've been at it more than 20 years, and have several dojos (or would the plural be "dojo"?) going strong. I say they have the wrong attitude because the head guy (the uber-sensei?! :)) was rejected for training in Okinawa because of having the wrong attitude. Must've been by one of those wise, centred old Mr. Miyagi-type dudes.
Pascal wrote:
And yet they only discovered and took a very specific part of Yoga. No way an ordinary Westerner can claim to know what "real" Yoga is.
This kind of attitude bothers me. If we in the West said something like that... I mean, science began here. If it was up to the East, we'd have little in the way of modern science and modern medicine. Even the Arabs only got going because of Arabic translations of Greek knowledge (translated into Latin a lot of the time). Should we say that no Easterner can make a good scientist or mathematician or doctor (etc.)? Then why is Eastern knowledge always so out of our reach? Why can we not learn yoga or tai chi or karate to the same level as them - especially if we are learning from masters from those countries?
The guys that go on and on about how they want to be with a beautiful woman but can't because they're poor, ugly, and they smell funny are oblivious to the fact that the real reason for their singleness is their self-pity.
Tell that to Final, who can't seem to bag those chicks.
You are living in a kind of dreamworld, Peaceful. For amazingly studly, hot, staggeringly good-looking guys like us, the world is our oyster. To say that an ugly guy's only problem is self-pity... I don't know, I've met guys like that you had a ridiculously high opinion of themselves. They weren't scoring much. And in the real world the only fat guys with hot girlfriends or hot wives are the ones with money. Money and power make anyone attractive.
As someone who spent about 12 years or so with martial arts, I can see how one could make the "balance and harmony" argument. A lot of things require a lot of self-discipline so that you almost have to be in a meditative-like state to accomplish them. Plus, there was always an underlying current of ethics to the whole thing, even though my particular school didn't teach anything you couldn't learn on Sesame Street in that area. And as Pascal mentioned, a guy like Bruce Lee certainly found martial arts to be a great metaphor for life in general. Most importantly, it's just fun.
A lot of things require a lot of self-discipline so that you almost have to be in a meditative-like state to accomplish them.
I'm not all that impressed by people breaking pieces of pine braced over cinder blocks, though. A good piece of oak, maybe. The stuff those Shaolin dudes do takes a lot of training and that meditative-like state. That's impressive, and some of it kind of sick.
Joe Dick said...
"That was a typo"
My apologies, Joe, that it had to happen precisely with you. 95% of the time, it's NOT a typo, and I had the long-going itch to point it out some day.
"No way an ordinary Westerner can claim to know what "real" Yoga is.
This kind of attitude bothers me."
Well, I was careful to say an ORDINARY Westerner. We're not all morons, as you can very well testify. :-)
My point was, the West took a facet of Yoga, and made a widespread trend of it, with the concequence that the main public has little to no idea about the rest of it in its native land. It generally takes individual curiosity to "bother" learning more and to know better.
I know about the religion and philosophy in the original, "genuine" Yoga. But I wouldn't claim to know them truly. I'm just a bit more informed than the Western lay man, enough to fathom my own ignorance.
(Which, as you probably know, is the beginning of Knowledge. Call me a novice Knower then. :-)
"Even the Arabs only got going because of Arabic translations of Greek knowledge"
For you to speak that way, clearly you never took a subject in school named "The History Of Science In The Arab World".
Which basically said the exact same thing, but made it seem as if "we Arabs brought Fire, the Wheel, the Alphabet and Cold Fusion to a world of thick thankless neanderthals".
The USA don't have an exclusive on chauvinism. That's probably one thing the Arabs genuinely invented!
;-)
Along with car bombings... :-(
"Then why is Eastern knowledge always so out of our reach?"
To complete what I said above: it only is to he who doesn't bother to find out how much he DOESN'T know.
A very common weakness, in many cultures. Enhanced when said cultures have a sense of practical superiority (economic, military...) which is mistaken for INTELLECTUAL superiority, and instrumentalizes History to pseudo-back it up. Or, paradoxally, when a culture is having issues with an inferiority complex.
Whether it's individuals or nations, naive narcissism is the norm...
"For amazingly studly, hot, staggeringly good-looking guys like us, the world is our oyster."
But Mom, I don't like oysters!
It's obviously tougher to meet women who know to look beyond appearances and a first impression. Again, they are the exception, not the norm. But such rare gems won't sneer at an ordinary/unattractive man who has true inner qualities. I know what kind of woman I'd like to date, but I haven't got a clue what she'll LOOK like. It matters little.
I think Final Identity's main problem is, he's not looking for durable love, just for the classic meaning of "a good time". Perfectly understandable and legitimate; but obviously, in this instance, being attractive or loaded is practically everything.
It all boils down to what you're seeking. You won't find kittens in a dog kennel.
Not very often, at any rate!
"The stuff those Shaolin dudes do takes a lot of training and that meditative-like state. That's impressive, and some of it kind of sick."
Thou saidst it.
There are, naturally, some "tricks of the trade", some techniques, laws of physics that help, etc. We all know how lying/walking on the nail plank works.
But know-how is often a mere part of the Technique. Them monks are for real. No David Copperfield would dare attempt some of their genuine stuff.
No David Copperfield would dare attempt some of their genuine stuff.
Maybe, but I've never seen a Shaolin monk make the Statue of Liberty disappear! ;-)
"Maybe, but I've never seen a Shaolin monk make the Statue of Liberty disappear!"
You definitely don't get Eastern philosophies. You see, if you believe hard enough that the Statue of Liberty doesn't exist, it simply will cease to exist. Now, that beats Copperfield. ;-)
Now, that beats Copperfield. Oops.
That's not Eastern philosophy - George Costanza said the same thing: "Remember, Jerry - it's not a lie if you believe it." If I believe it doesn't exist, it doesn't. :)
With one gesture of my hand, I can make all of you believe the Statue of Liberty has disappeared. And you'll also believe the liberties of the average American citizen have disappeared as well. Or that the USA have an illegal prison in Cuba. (I haven't tried it yet, you see. Not sure of the side effects.)
Come now, Lothar, we have the mongol hordes of Fu-Man-Chu to defeat. This may require a hypnotic gesture of BOTH my hands, if they are too many.
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