Once in a documentary on pornography somebody pointed out that in many countries, if you pay somebody to have sex with you, that's illegal... but if you point a video camera on the act, and you say you're making a pornographic film, and you're paying her not for having sex with you, but for being an actress, then it's legal! Isn't that funny?
I wonder why most of the world's populations are up in arms about prostitution. It's not illegal to have sex. It's not even illegal to have sex outside of marriage. And it's not illegal to have sex with a hundred people per year. And it's not illegal to pay somebody to do you a favor. But if that favor is sex: boom, illegal.
Sure, there are tons of problems involved with it, like sexually transmitted deseases (STD) and so on, but all of those problems are the same with generally promiscuous people, the payment has nothing to do with it. And I don't think anybody has tried to outlaw promiscuousity. Why does the payment change everything so radically?
I don't think the purpose is to protect the prostitute. Legality and regulation would do that much more effectively. I think the reason is some emotional response to a deep feeling about "immorality".
This is supported by the fact of an Italian supreme court decision in recent years: that there is no difference between paying for sex in person and paying somebody for virtual sex over the Internet. Clearly the STD dangers and so on are not present, but it is still regarded as equally immoral and illegal!
Letters from working girls
Letters from Johns
34 comments:
Eolake: "I think the reason is some emotional response ..."
Drugs, sex and gambling. The three best businesses to be in.
And that's precisely why their are illegal. The government hates competition. And people support the goverment because they have been conditioned (= programmed) to fear these things.
Why they are illegal? One word answer: Fear.
Business reasons, huh. Good grief.
Have you ever seen Penn & Teller's show Bullshit? Check out the one on prostitution. Even if you're morally against the idea, legalizing it has been shown to better all round - for the hookers, the johns, and law enforcement. Isn't it legal in Denmark? Or am I thinking of The Netherlands?
I don't think I'd ever be able to partake of it. But I have no real moral objection. It seems like it's the religious nuts who are most bothered by it, which is odd considering what those Old Testament dudes got up to.
"Isn't it legal in Denmark? Or am I thinking of The Netherlands?"
Probably legal in both. Definitely the latter.
But it seems to pretty much be even here in the UK. There are "houses" of girls which have web sites and so on. Maybe it just needs to be a collective arrangement and not have a "madam" or pimp. But they generally don't get bothered.
Anything highly desirable acts as a concentrator of energy. Misdirecting that energy is how you obtain power. Power is a trick. You can never take it, but you can trick people to give it to you.
The Church (the original Government) has worked for 1000 years to get a monopoly on sex. And quite successfully, it seems.
You don't get people to comply with your plan by telling them the truth. Instead you introducing new concepts and associations building on what they already believe in. Fear is the best motivator to get people to reject something they'd normally go for without even thinking.
For anything important there's always a layering of reasons/motives.
I do have a problem with prostitution, but it has nothing to do with the usual morality issues. It is about the effect of broad legalization may have on shaping society.
In this day and age, it is said that many teenagers have no vision of a future for themselves. Granted, most of us will admit that there are always options, provided that one is willing to work to get what they want.
But if prostitution becomes a banality, as it would surely be if it became openly legal, then it may be regarded (and wrongfully so!) as an "easy" career by more teenagers, giving them yet another reason not to cope with the hassle of school.
Certainly not an empowering society change for youngsters.
"if prostitution becomes a banality, as it would surely be if it became openly legal, then it may be regarded (and wrongfully so!) as an "easy" career by more teenagers"
I doubt it. I find it hard to imagine that The Netherlands has a big mass of teens who drop out of school to become prostitutes, just because it's legal.
"But if prostitution becomes a banality, as it would surely be if it became openly legal, then it may be regarded (and wrongfully so!) as an "easy" career by more teenagers, giving them yet another reason not to cope with the hassle of school."
You have a good point, but I can't really see prostitution ever becoming that popular a profession. There's still plenty of young girls who want to get an education and make something of their lives.
Here are Letters from Working Girls and Letters from Johns by Susannah Breslin.
I'm not really concerned about devastating effects, but small ones. I have coached dropout teens in math & science to help them get their high school degree, and it sure opened my eyes on a lot of things.
To me, the real problem is kids that have been told all their lives that they were worthless and would never make it. 'Tis not true in a vast majority of cases, but it is hard to contemplate how much those kids believe it. Those are the ones I am worried about, not the prom queens. And they are legion.
"I can't really see prostitution ever becoming that popular a profession"
Try driving around the Place de la Porte Maillot in Paris, on a sunny summer day. The circle has to be over 1/2 km in circumference, with a girl standing every 2 meters. Not popular when banalized? Not sure.
You have a good point.
Though I think that education about the profession would be far more beneficial than outlawing and demonizing it.
I doubt it. I find it hard to imagine that The Netherlands has a big mass of teens who drop out of school to become prostitutes, just because it's legal.
Just like there has been no big fallout from their legalization of marijuana.
Try driving around the Place de la Porte Maillot in Paris, on a sunny summer day. The circle has to be over 1/2 km in circumference, with a girl standing every 2 meters. Not popular when banalized? Not sure.
Is it legal in France? In places like Nevada and The Netherlands where it is legal there are not armies of prostitutes.
I am not saying that I would want to see my daughter go into the trade if it was legal (if I had one, I mean), but the profession has always existed and if it legalized it would be better for everyone. And I do not believe that "prostitute" would become a desirable occupation were it suddenly legal.
How would legalized prostitution affect slave trade rings?
How would legalized prostitution cope with the services offered? How would you develop guidelines for acceptable practices?
I saw one Nevada prostitute being interviewed, and she said she never kisses the client. I never really thought before, is sex with a prostitute just sex, or does it embrace foreplay and post-coital activities?
Some acts like sodomy are outright illegal, even between man and wife. Would these laws be repealed?
What age limit for becoming a prostitute or a John? Does it mirror age or concent, age of majority or legal drinking age. I always thought it was strange that in Britain you could kill and die for your country two years younger than you could vote for who would ask you to kill or die. In Britain there are variable drinking ages, for wine in a restaurant it is two years younger than beer in a pub. Does this mean phallacio (sp) should be available to a 14 yr old and sex at 16(the age of consent in the UK). Should clean consenting hired sex be reserved for an older age than slutting around,spreading STD in abusive relationships at high school/6th form.
Also, would the legalization permit male prostitutes. Would it permit women offering services to women and men to men also? These are practices that are still, in some places, not permitted by law.
Just questions.
"Is it legal in France?"
I don't think so, but it is so well anchored into their society that it goes on openly, yet only in some tacitly delimited areas. But it definitely is a banality there, as it is in Italy and many other countries.
"education about the profession would be far more beneficial than outlawing and demonizing it"
I concur 100% here. But in times like ours when many, if not most, educators are idiots obeying the rule of hypocrites, who is going to tell the bare truth to the kids?
Damn, there is (supposedly, I still can't believe it) even a university with a saddled dinosaur at its main entrance somewhere in the U.S.! And you rely on those people to train the people who will educate the kids? (If you don't know what I'm talking about, search for "Intelligent Design" on the web. Rampant medieval obscurantism).
You guys may be right, and I might be too worried about "my" kids, but I still don't wish to see this becoming as commonplace as "real occupations". Women are far more capable than that, and they still have a long way to go before this fact is universally accepted. No need to fall back to medieval times were it was only normal that a woman without a man to support her would become a prostitute.
I also wholeheartedly subscribe to Alex's view. The debate on the legalization of prostitution is such a "can of worms" that no politician would dare to tackle this openly.
The only way to go about this, politically speaking, would be a progressive increase in laxism, letting the acceptable limits be defined "on the play field", so to speak. And only once the situation would have come to a new, stable level of acceptance that this could be made law.
This implies a long period of implicit rules, opening wide the door to all kind of abuse, both from exploiters and the police, which has never proven to be reliable nor trustworthy when left with too much latitude in any area.
Probably the basic problem is the Fear in us all which makes us tend to want to control the behavior of others.
Alex' questions point out, to me at least, the silliness of legislating adult/consensual sex at *all*.
Bert, quite many prostitutes are intelligent women who use this as a time-effective way of supporting themselves through a higher education.
I also wholeheartedly subscribe to Alex's view. The debate on the legalization of prostitution is such a "can of worms" that no politician would dare to tackle this openly.
Not really. In Nevada at least they have dealt with all the problems Alex raised, no trouble. To be a prostitute it's the same as for the porn industry - it's not the age of consent, it's the age of majority. In the U.S. this may vary from state to state, they would go by that.
From what the Nevada prostitutes said in that episode of Bullshit I referred to, it just sex, and there is no "foreplay and post-coital activities". If you want an emotional connection, well I guess you can't pay for that.
You guys may be right, and I might be too worried about "my" kids, but I still don't wish to see this becoming as commonplace as "real occupations".
About this, all I know is that in places where it has been legalized, it's still seen as an undesirable occupation by most people, and as Eolake said a lot of the time it is a means to an end. Only when it is illegal do women get trapped into the life forever.
I didn't think it insoluble. It's just like any other problem. You have to look at all the parameters. You cannot have a minor as a prostitute. If homosexuality is outlawed in the state/nation, then same sex prostitution is outlawed. Isn't there an old US law "unlawful carnal knowledge" pertaining to sex outside wedlock, does that apply anywhere? Is it an urban legend.
Anything which is legalized has its associated grey and black market activity. People buy smokes for teenagers. Since the stricter enforcement of alcohol purchase in the UK 14-18 yr olds found it easier and cheaper to get drugs than booze. Legalize prostitution, then the "exotic" skin trade will come closer to the surface. Some women will still be trapped.
You will also still have the un-licensed operators, cheap rate operations. Same as in plumbing, electrical, roofing, taxis and limos etc. Some people will resent paying the premium for certified.
So no foreplay eh. If it's just basic grunties, then how is it better than a wank? It's just like the sex ed. class in "The Meaning of Life".
Some "angels" (as they sometimes call themselves) here in the UK sell a "girlfriend experience" which includes stuff like kissing and cuddling.
In Canada I do not think that sodomy is illegal. I believe that Trudeau got rid of all that. I'm not sure of that, though.
Prostitution and morality?
Well, if the girrul takes your money and runs without giving any service, that's an immoral prostitute I would say.
Eddie Skoller told this one:
A farmer comes to the big city, and shyly approaches a working girl. He doesn't have much money, but she tells him that for five bucks he can have a "penguin".
He does not want to appear ignorant about what that is, and accepts. So she tells him to drop his pants, takes his money, and walks away. And he shuffles after her with his legs bound by his lowered trousers: "... But what about the Penguin?!"
The penguin one is good! LOL!!
As for quoting the experience of the State of Nevada... [taking a deep breath, trying to remain pondered]
How in hell could one seriously consider as a model a legal frame designed and built entirely by and for mobsters? [remainder censored]
"In Canada I do not think that sodomy is illegal. I believe that Trudeau got rid of all that. I'm not sure of that, though."
I'm pretty sure that any country that has legalized gay marriage got that one out of the way... ;-)))
P.S. You guys won't believe this, but the verification word I just got is "petfuck". I'm not making this up, had to dry my tears before I could write this post-scriptum.
ROTFL. I never had anything like a word yet.
You should have taken a screen shot.
"petfuck" was truly one in a zillion. The post refers to PM Pierre Elliott Trudeau, commonly referred to as P.E.T. by the press.
In fact, PET in this case stands for Personal Electronic Transactor, as in the Commodore PET.
Petfuck was early 1970s hobbyist jargon. It roughly meant to pull an all-nighter programming your Commodore.
Hey, Blogger.com dudes, I'm impressed! :-)
I'm pretty sure that any country that has legalized gay marriage got that one out of the way... ;-)))
It would be funny if they hadn't - and it was legal for gays to marry but sodomy was illegal.
Anyway I just meant that was legal a long time before gay marriage was. It was simply decriminalizing it, sort of like decriminalizing marijuana without making it illegal.
As for quoting the experience of the State of Nevada... [taking a deep breath, trying to remain pondered]
How in hell could one seriously consider as a model a legal frame designed and built entirely by and for mobsters? [remainder censored]
The entire state of Nevada? No, Bert, that was just Las Vegas - and that wasn't for mobsters, just by mobsters.
I don't like the way that prostitution seems to "control men." Just from my personal perspective, I "just know" deep down in my bones that women (speaking in generalizations here) enjoy sex more than men, and that the act of coitus and of intimacy is more "needed" by women than men, yet culturally (and probably biologically?) we've always had a set-up in which the women are able to "use" men's need for sex in order to control men. Prostitution is generally just another hint in that direction -- guys (like me) are desperate to get off; gals know how to hold out in order to control; some gals will do it for pay to fill that niche in the market. It all adds up to an imbalanced system.
I don't claim to understand it, or to be able to work it to my benefit. I also don't claim that "having to be" a prostitute, for many lower-class uneducated women, actually gives them much power at all -- it's probably mostly a dangerous, unpleasant life, and I wouldn't want personally to have to be one. But I also see a strange blip in humankind's power politics, which is generally consistent across cultures -- this idea that when men "abuse" women's needs for things, we lock them up or at least castigate them as cruel mercenary jerks; but when women perform similar parallel acts in the other direction, they end up "empowered."
I'm personally frustrated over the course of a lifetime by the mere fact of biological drives. Having to eat or sleep is, really, an annoyance, if you've got good work going on; and how many times in my life have I stood over the toilet basically mentally hollering at my bladder, "Oh, hurry up, fer Chrissakes! It's NOT THAT INTERESTING A VIEW. There are BOOKS TO READ DANGIT!" I feel somehow the same about my sex drive, except to an even greater degree -- I sort of wish it would go away. If I didn't have a "need" to engage in all the bullshit behaviors necessary to please a woman to the point that she grows up and admits reality ("Hey, I really DO want to have coitus almost ALL THE TIME within reason, just like ALL NORMAL ADULTS") I would have the energy and time to get a second Ph.D., cure cancer, solve homelessness ...
But nooooo, I'm too busy slaking biological desires which, on the whole, our culture and women in general have managed to learn to control. "Hey, there's a weakness," they seem to be saying. "We should EXPLOIT it rather than SYMPATHIZE with it. Since the opportunity to be selfish and cruel exists, we must take it and use it as much as possible." What an awful world view.
"Maybe it just needs to be a collective arrangement and not have a "madam" or pimp."
Another example of "righteous morality" arbitrary: organizing prostitution gets you indicted for proxenetism... with no difference whatsoever being made between one who helps and protects the working girls, and one who coerces them into doing it, a.k.a. "white slavery"! (Or slavery of any other skin color, as far as I'm concerned.) There were several recent high-class scandals involving the FORMER.
No comment...
"You don't get people to comply with your plan by telling them the truth."
That would only give them freedom. Too generous for those seeking power, for power means holding the decision for others...
"Fear is the best motivator to get people to reject something"
Don't forget its twin sibling, guilt. The fear of punishment. The fear of angering God Himself, and there's no escaping THAT fiery Judge. Yipe! Ruh-roh! Jinkies!
Bert worried...
"I do have a problem with prostitution, but it has nothing to do with the usual morality issues. It is about the effect of broad legalization may have on shaping society."
Then your problem isn't with paid sex, it's with the lack of wisdom and sense of responsibility of average people.
You're a sneaky anarchist, pleading like that for the enlightened education of the masses, mister!
I suppose you don't need me to point you to the direction of Guantanamo, right? Forward, MARCH!
"then it may be regarded (and wrongfully so!) as an "easy" career by more teenagers"
You're forgetting something here: remove the effects of it being illegal, and prices will drop while availability rises (and legal risks/expenses disappear). It will be less and less regaded as an easy path to abundant money, eventually settling close to a reasonable balance. Remember what happened with alcohol after the Prohibition was lifted.
"Try driving around the Place de la Porte Maillot in Paris, on a sunny summer day."
Ah, but try walking along the aisles of a supermarket, and believing that so many people on the planet are going hungry. I believe the example you mention is just that: a place dedicated to displaying the, um, "merchandise", for every potential customer coming to shop.
"Just like there has been no big fallout from their legalization of marijuana."
You liberals will bring Armageddon upon our fine, uptight-in-the-arse, wonderfully bigoted society, mark my words!
"Is it legal in France?"
A rather blurry status, to sum it up. For instance, prostitution itself is illegal no more today, but active and "passive" solliciting seem to be. Meaning, if you accept a hooker's invitation, you can get arrested. Murky waters...
"How would legalized prostitution affect slave trade rings?"
This here may be the core question. Organized crime, money, power, politicians... sometimes it can all be connected, according to some rumors. Rumors which I, being a fine patriotic and trusting Lebanese citizen, don't believe for a second! (Said in a knowing tone of voice, w-w, n-n.)
"Some acts like sodomy are outright illegal, even between man and wife. Would these laws be repealed?"
Can they decently be enforced? ;-P
And are they constitutional?
"I always thought it was strange that in Britain you could kill and die for your country two years younger than you could vote for who would ask you to kill or die."
That's IT! To Guantanamo Bay with you too, you dangerous seditious intellectual! Or, if you prefer skiing to swimming, to the gulag in Siberia!
There's precisely a shortage of labor force in Siberia, for the ice cube-cutting factories which export to all the champagne-drinking millionaires in the Capitalist West. (Now you can quit wondering what kind of forced labor they have there.)
That'll teach you to notice inconvenient mathematical facts. Anarchist!
"Does this mean phallacio (sp)"
Fellatio. Not to be mistaken with fallacy, which is illegal only if you are not an elected politician.
"who is going to tell the bare truth to the kids?"
A Freudian slip here, or an intentional double-entendre?
;-)
"You guys may be right, and I might be too worried about "my" kids, but I still don't wish to see this becoming as commonplace as "real occupations"."
Well, not so long ago, in the fine bougeois families, when the son came of age, he would be discretely but unabashedly directed to "one of those ladies" to teach him the, um, "facts of life" in full, so he wouldn't run the risk of being embarrassed later on in his... "private social life". Especially if he was about to get married.
Fully unofficial, but notorious.
"Alex' questions point out, to me at least, the silliness of legislating adult/consensual sex at *all*."
Stating the obvious sometimes becomes necessary...
"quite many prostitutes are intelligent women who use this as a time-effective way of supporting themselves through a higher education."
Very true. Women intelligent enough to shed the arbitrary narrowness of Society and use the potential of the System to correct some injustices, like the unfair difficulty for some to aim for equal chances in life.
If I had the power of Bruce Almighty, I would greatly hesitate about doing many things, but there's one idea I'm confident I would immediately apply: causing the anatomic hymen to disappear in ALL human females, and announce it officially. Then hypocrite primitive men would be deprived of that natural excuse that allows only THEM to lose their virginity and act as if they haven't.
(The public announce is to avoid many useless "Honor crimes" from the more hasty pithecanthropes.)
Oh, and of course I'd vanish from existence all the undetonated landmines and cannon shells/sub-ammunitions from former war zones, but that's off-topic.
"it just sex, and there is no "foreplay and post-coital activities". If you want an emotional connection, well I guess you can't pay for that."
Money "can't buy me love". ;-)
"Isn't there an old US law "unlawful carnal knowledge" pertaining to sex outside wedlock, does that apply anywhere?"
It definitely exists in some States, no urban legend. I think there's something similar in the UK, but I'm not sure.
"Since the stricter enforcement of alcohol purchase in the UK 14-18 yr olds found it easier and cheaper to get drugs than booze."
Talk about irony!
I'd rather my own children did sex than drugs. Essentially, I'd insist on protection and being responsible. Following my own personal standards there.
Of course, in Lebanon "being responsible" often means keeping a girl virgin until she is married, or in most communities you'll get her into BIG trouble. Of the life-threatening kind. I was thinking more in the lines of "civilized Western countries-responsible".
"If it's just basic grunties, then how is it better than a wank?"
Might as well pay only once, for a rubber doll and some lube. AND it'd be guaranteed safer! (If you keep your "GF" in a securely locked place. I take no responsibility whatsoever if you keep lending your toy to "the guys".)
Documentarist Joe Dick said...
"In Canada I do not think that sodomy is illegal."
It is explicitly mentioned in the Koran as a religiously legitimate means of natural contraception, when your wife (or one of your 4 wives) is in a fertile period...
Not all religions do frown upon it!
"Well, if the girrul takes your money and runs without giving any service, that's an immoral prostitute I would say."
Undoubtedly! Oh, the shame of it!
Then again, if in Grand Theft Auto 4 you shoot the prostitute to steal you money back, it's not very nice either...
Final Identity revealed...
"I "just know" deep down in my bones that women (speaking in generalizations here) enjoy sex more than men"
That is, PROVIDED men aren't too selfish, or the woman will see it end before she has enjoyed anything.
I think we can safely bet that a vast majority of Johns give little consideration to the pleasure of their hired partners.
"guys (like me) are desperate to get off; gals know how to hold out in order to control"
That means they might enjoy it more, but they NEED it less. I believe it's biological. A man's prostate automatically becomes "ready" regularly, signaling and inducing desire, and eventually "wet dreams" in order to let off the pressure if nothing else happens. Women have no such mechanism, and women getting horny in their fertile period is a very occasional occurrence.
Males and females, like in most species, are not identical and don't "work" the same way. But if we could just get rid of milleniae of customary domination, reaching harmony with some simple effort should really be within our reach. After all, we can use our sophisticated brain to help us there!
;-)
"for many lower-class uneducated women, [...] it's probably mostly a dangerous, unpleasant life"
Undoubtedly. If they are a pimp's slaves, they control very little!
but when women perform similar parallel acts in the other direction, they end up "empowered."
Payback of the oppressed. Gender equality is very rare in history, and as for female domination, it did happen on occasions, but only once in a pink moon. (Pun intended.)
and how many times in my life have I stood over the toilet basically mentally hollering at my bladder, "Oh, hurry up, fer Chrissakes! It's NOT THAT INTERESTING A VIEW. There are BOOKS TO READ DANGIT!"
Okay, NOW I'm really going to need therapy.
;-)
"I would have the energy and time to get a second Ph.D., cure cancer, solve homelessness ..."
Yo, bro, what about world peace?
Really, you can be SO selfish sometimes...
;-) again.
I would have the energy and time to get a second Ph.D., cure cancer, solve homelessness ...
Surely one pretty huge dick is enough.
...and better than a BFA by a long shot (big fucking ass).
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