Thursday, December 14, 2006

Loneliness

A reader wants a discussion on how people survive divorce.
Qouth the raven: "To me, there's nothing worse than being alone..."

Well... I've been living alone and celibate for the bulk of my life. Sure, occasionally there can be a pang of loneliness. But I really don't think it is very important. (And I know people living with others have the same problems, some of them much more than me.)

Many people will protest: "What do you mean? Surely there is nothing more important than love?"

That's true, but love between only two people is "special love" (as A Course In Miracles call it), and it is just severely limited. It is just a tiny, tiny bit of Everything. And if it seems fantastically important to you, you are already in trouble, no matter if you "have" somebody or not.

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

I think it should also be noted that one can be in a relationship without that limited kind of special-love getting in the way.

It should also be clarified what special love is. It is a kind of affection that says "I love you but I hate another." It is a love based on separation rather than oneness. It is steeped in the idea that some individuals are to be held in higher regard than others. This isn't at all true.

Now, that doesn't mean you can't have an order or priorities. You can love everyone and still protect your wife and child should a criminal threaten their lives. What is done isn't half as important as the motivation behind it. The idea is to never be driven by anger or hatred towards those who appear to do you wrong.

The trap people fall into is thinking they are somehow incomplete, that something is wrong with them and they can only be fixed by allowing someone of their preferred gender into their lives. This is why most relationships are doomed to failure. Nobody can fill a supposed hole within someone else. A relationship may serve as a distraction, a temporary relief of their woes, but once reality sets in they're right back where they started and this time their cure becomes an object of scorn and they find themselves doing the same exact thing all over again.

To put it in universal terms, there is one kind of love and though its expression may differ with each person in your life it is to be shared with all. No, you don't have to go sex the hobo sitting on your local street corner. You don't even have to toss him any change. In your heart simply love him as you would anyone else. Why? The only one that suffers from special love and special hate is you. Free yourself and you free the world.

laurie said...

"I think it should also be noted that one can be in a relationship without that limited kind of special-love getting in the way."

LT, I do love your words. But I don't know where you're coming from; if its from experience, bravo. If it is from the head, I'd like to hear your words after you've made a serious go at a committed relationship, for more than a couple of years. I don't mean to be harsh here. Otherwise, words serve as a covering. Moving from "special relationships" into "holy relationships" (I think especially with a partner of the opposite sex, which brings in added complications) takes practice, and unfortunately (to ego) much failure and increasing humility along the way.

So if you speak from experience, I will listen and learn. I'd like to hear from the veterans on this one.

I think of the saying, "My heart has broken so many times it's now permanently open."

There are people out there who have taken these principles and attempted to make them work in real relationships -- very difficult but as you say, DOING so frees our self and the world.

Anonymous said...

"And if it seems fantastically important to you, you are already in trouble, no matter if you "have" somebody or not."

It just seems very important to me. [Many things do.] I've felt it once : when you're in the middle of it, it does seem fantastically important. Of course, that's because your hypothalamus is having an intense liluberin chemical storm...
In other words, AT THE MOMENT, it's normal to lose your normal sense of reason. :-)
And hey, there are other wild and dumb things you could do in life, but none I know of that are as worthy as "special love". If you're gonna lose your sense over just one thing, this is definitely the best choice.

Still, to bring something useful to the main topic, being divorced and being alone are quite different. Divorce means the departure of ONE person, usually very important, but not the only person in your life. Children, family, friends, neighbors... true loneliness would take a lot of effort. Or a lot of navel contemplation.

Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly okay to feel down after a separation. But you must always remember it's not the end of ALL your life, far from it. Unless you've decided that nothing else in your life matters. And in such a case, as Eolake rightfully says, you are in trouble. Limit your vision, and you'll limit your freedom as a human, hurting yourself very much, divorce or no divorce.

Think about it. And talk to people whom time helped to heal : things always end up looking better with some distance.

"Surviving" divorce? Hey, it hurts, but it shouldn't kill.

I've been dumped once. (Yeah, the same once I mentioned earlier on.) And several people around me weren't of much help for a while. I had a cat. He really helped. Anywhere you can find sincere help, don't hesitate.
This cat and I will remain companions for life. He's an animal, yes, but also the most loyal of friends.

Best of luck and courage to Qouth. It'll pass. Trust me. Just open your eyes and look around, there's always some light to be spotted and followed.
(Provided you don't live in Fallujah, naturally. THEN you'd be in it for good, bro'!)

Lucid,
Before commenting on your opinions, I need to ask : have you ever, y'know, "been in love"? Because living the experience brings a whole new perspective compared to just abstractly reasoning about it. So, what I'm asking exactly is, is your attitude just theoretical, or based on some... "field knowledge"?
Because, in the first case, it's likely to change unexpectedly, that's all I'm really sayin'. And in the latter, it'd give your comments a whole different meaning.

Me, it helped me see how blind one can become. Really.
I knew I was being irrational, and yet I couldn't help it! Makes me inclined to much more indulgence now if I see it happen to others. :-)

"Nobody can fill a supposed hole within someone else."
No... I was about to make some clever joke, but this is not the place for immature college boy sex-ed humour. ;-)
Let's try and keep this discussion a wee bit serious. ["Wee bit?" Snicker.]

So, on the serious side, I don't feel a thing for deliberately transient relationships or dates. We are not "incomplete", indeed, but still we become something more through couple love. Through any love, in fact, but in different ways.
I'm not sure, but maybe it's not that we are incomplete until we are in a couple. Maybe it's just that without love, our life is hollow. And "special love" is a very important sort of love, that's all.
Am I manking any sense here?

As for "there is one kind of love", I think I understand what you mean, without necessarily feeling identically (I think). For instance, we seem to be in disagreement over the form and/or meaning of "special love".
Good thing you explained what you mean, because extremist moral leagues seem to be everywhere these days.

Anonymous said...

I think of the saying, "My heart has broken so many times it's now permanently open."

I love that saying!
I hope it's not the only way to keep it open. ;-)

Anonymous said...

My comments do come from experience. I have been in the position of seeking love to be complete, and while I have not experienced it while in a relationship I have known the kind of love of which I speak. It is not a constant state for me as of now, but I know enough to be able to say my words come from knowledge and not just theory.

I have known of everything I speak of at one time, although it may not always apply to where I am at the moment I say the words. In fact, the words are sometimes meant to aid in returning me to whatever state of being I speak of. Words are quite powerful and can impact the speaker as much as the one listening to him. (Although he doesn't always need an audience.)

Anonymous said...

"Words are quite powerful and can impact the speaker as much as the one listening to him. (Although he doesn't always need an audience.)"

You'd really make a lousy politician, you know that? ;-)
(Yes, you CAN take it as a compliment.)

Anonymous said...

Dear Euloke,love is the engine for any marvelous creation because love is the urge for sharing what you are admiring with the ones around you,for they can feel it too,that makes you feel to be part of "everything".You can fell the "loneliness" only when you think you are useless that can't be your case because you are showing to the world it's miracles,you are raising questions challenging others to think more about the world around them and to admire the true simple and natural beauties of it,you are showing to them the true light and not "the fallacious sparkling of the tallow that smokes",you are inciting their imagination,the fuel for the creation's engine,even Einstein mentioned "the imagination is more important than the knowledge",you could quote it sometimes at DOMAI's "thought of the day".
With endless admiration and gratitude,always yours Paul Alexandru Cazacliu artmanro@yahoo.com

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

"Nobody can fill a supposed hole within someone else."

That is so true. The "you complete me" cliche is dangerous thinking.

Anonymous said...

Dear Eulake,as a work of fine art fulfill it's mission only when at least one receiver gets its message,also the love that everyone feels for this world can't be complete till at least one human being sees its light,I believe that is one of the mission God gived to us,to share our love for the other as He's sharing it to all of us,and delivered His only Son,The Love itself for save the world and reveal the TRUTH,He's always with us,and with Him no one is never alone,the only one who no matter what don't give up on you.
With endless admiration and gratitude,always yours Paul Alexandru Cazacliu artmanro@yahoo.com

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

I think true beauty and true love does not depend on a witness or confirmation.

Anonymous said...

Eolake,
Thank you posting this about lonliness and divorce. I'm very grateful.
How you can live celibate for the bulk of your life is incredible. Don't you miss the intimacy of a woman? (I do and would.)
You said something that did hit home. You said, it seems fantastically important to you, you are already in trouble, no matter if you have somebody or not.
(Maybe I'm in trouble then.)
Most of what Lucid said didn't make any sense to me (No offense Lucid I just have trouble understanding your points a lot.)
But I do agree that nobody can (Completely) fill a hole within someone else. No relationship has ever been a distraction for me. I'd welcome it.
Signal mentioned the differences between special relationships and holy relationships. That I understand. I honest want the latter.
Pascal said it was important to him. It's extremely important to me also. He said, "If you're gonna lose sense over just one thing this is definitely the best choice.
He also said, "Surviving divorce? It hurts, but it shouldn't kill." Seems my own divorce has ruptured my heart forever. It's hard to let go.
Pascal said it would pass. I wish I could find that SPECIAL LOVE everyone has talked about. Lonliness for me is a monster. It thrives in my soul like a deadly cancer eating my soul.
I don't like transient relationships or dates myself. I would prefer a solid committment.
(Do I remember correctly that Lucid lives near the Dayton or Troy Ohio USA area? If he does, I wonder if he knows a lady who may want an honest man with a tremendous amount of love to give?
I'm ashamed to admit this but a couple of times I called an escort service because of my extreme need to feel human again. I know it all begins with friendship, but I've been on dating sites and posted profiles etc, been to singles clubs, bars, (they are the worse) most women there cannot even remember my name by the end of the night.
I'm 46 years old. Sometimes I feel like it's hopeless. I'm printing out all responses I receive on this and praying feverishly that God will answer my prayer for a soulmate.
Any and all HELP is GRATEFULLY APPRECIATED.
Thank you my friends and again Eolake thank you for doing this for me. I consider this a wonderful thing sir.

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

Well, whatever else it true or not, it should be clear that all that emotion is not your friend. I recommend using EFT for it. It helped me tremendously, until last year I suffered from depressions, they are gone. (St John's Wort helps too.) Go to:
http://emofree.com

Anonymous said...

No offense taken. Much of what I said won't make sense if you function from a different paradigm, which is why I attempted to say something in-between near the end that almost anyone could understand. Not necessarily agree with, but think about if the mood strikes them.

I look at everything and everyone as if it's all one. There isn't me and you, we are all the same thing, we're just being projected as individuals. IE, individuality is illusory. (This is akin to Buddhism and "A Course in Miracles". Note, they aren't the same thing, but there are many similarities.)

If someone does not think as I do, I would ask: do you believe in the incompleteness of the soul? Is a human being naught but a piece of a two-person puzzle? Is a man to spend his life seeking in desperation another person to make him whole again? And if he should find what he chases after and it ceases to fulfill, what then? Is he to resume the search?

I am not saying there is anything wrong with relationships. That would be absolutely ludicrous. However, the reason one seeks may not make for the healthiest of outcomes. Desperation easily makes fools of the wise. From my experience and what I have observed, someone who is not wholly satisfied with himself and his life is not suited to be in a committed relationship. (Satisfaction in no way equals stagnation. Not unless it's found in doing only enough to quell fear and not to thrive.) This is not a slam towards anyone, especially not you, terry. Surely we can all understand how you feel because we've all felt it at one time or another. Being alone doesn't mean you have to be lonely but knowledge itself is useless unless applied, and with concepts such as this it's difficult to know where to begin with its application. Even when it hurts to do otherwise an old wound is oft preferred to a new joy and this blinds perception to new avenues of living.

Of course, I don't doubt the power of the right woman to turn things around. I've experienced it myself. Once through a friend and then many times by browsing through Domai. The former aided me in recovering my youthful spirit through her enthusiasm about life. The Domai girls can raise anybody's mood, so that should come as no surprise. Yet, the interesting thing is that those lifts never come while I'm desperately seeking them out. It's when I resign myself to working with what I've got that I get a helping hand. Desperation seems to create a psychological resistance to getting what you're so afraid of not having. It tends to blind you to what's right in front of your nose and you miss the magic opportunities you were looking for because you were so adamant in the belief that it had to be "somewhere out there" that it couldn't be right in front of your nose.

The good thing is no joyous thing can permanently escape one's grasp. A change in mindset and a total alteration of one's course can occur in an instant, bringing with it most, if not all, the things one desires.

I can only speak of generalizations. There is an exception to every rule I can imagine because the mind behind each of us is so many layers deep that it's difficult to comprehend everything that goes on inside it. My only hope is that everyone will get exactly what they need at the time they need it. It's not a matter of shoulds and should nots, it's a matter of where each person is and which tools best serve them at that point in their journey. Sometimes that's a relationship, sometimes it means a life of solitude. No one is asked to do anything that is not in alignment with their heart. Indeed, they should be encouraged to do the opposite, and far more often than they are today.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Paul on this : real love is not meant to be jealously buried like some treasure in gold coins. Its beauty is to be shared with the world. For what better gift to the world than the example of a happiness that is a heartwarming sight to all, and an inspirational example of what they too can reach?

To love and to be possessive have nothing to do. First of all, loving means mutually giving oneself to each other, freely. "What I love, I take" is a nonsensical attitude. And, alas, a very common one.

If your loved one is capable of dumping you because he/she has found somebody more appealing, then you weren't really loved back. What's worse? Finding out sooner, or later? I believe the sooner such falseness ends, the better off you are, and time will convince you.

As I've told, I once loved very deeply. I "was in love". I wasn't loved back, at least not in that way. Well it was painful at the time, but in my worst periods I still knew that I was better off than wasting both our times in a clear mistake. It takes two to tango. I couldn't have danced alone for the both of us!

You know what the worst form of loneliness possibly is? Being alone in company. That's true isolation. If you're alone by yourself, all you really have to do is to seek others.
Inversely, it is quite possible to be alone in tranquillity without feeling lonely. Staying with just the company of yourself from time to time can be very a positive thing. Even enriching.

The "you complete me" cliche is dangerous thinking.
It reveals a dangerously insecure attitude, yes. Just look at the jealous folks.
Eventually, I'd rather say "you make me more than I was", which is quite different. It's not about filling a lack, it's about building toward the skies.
Love and generosity are occasions to become more. All forms of love. And there's no limit, no single love which is necessary and sufficient for some mythical void. Love is defined positively, not negatively.

Less than three years ago, I was just another single guy. Today, I am someone incredibly important to a little child. (I've become an uncle.) Sometimes, realizing how hugely meaningful I am to him scares me a bit. It feels like such an immense responsibility, while to me it's so simple. When you mean a lot to someone through love, it doesn't complete any missing part in you as a person. It just creates something entirely new, and it is this something that may feel huge in itself. The whole becomes more than the sum of the parts.
A little like a bunch of match sticks become a superb ocean liner.

"I think true beauty and true love does not depend on a witness or confirmation."
Ah, but this makes it far more fulfilling. I see love a bit like generosity : if there's nobody you can give to, you are generous, but something's missing, your generosity is authentic but remains abstract.

"No offense Lucid I just have trouble understanding your points a lot."
Lucid is like Kant and Spinoza in that aspect. Everybody knows they're great philosophers, but few manage to understand their philosophy. ;-)

"Nobody can fill a hole within someone else"
A metaphor comes to mind. When a woman gives birth, was her child filling a void inside her? No. She simply had a womb, which gave her the capacity to MAKE space for the newcoming baby, as much as the baby needed space. She wasn't any less or more complete because of pregnancy : she was something more, a mother carrying a new life, a new love.

"I wish I could find that SPECIAL LOVE everyone has talked about."
Ah, but be sure not everybody else has found it either. I'm still looking. With complete faith. :-)

"I'm ashamed to admit this but a couple of times I called an escort service because of my extreme need to feel human again."
Don't. Don't be ashamed. Nobody has the right to judge you for simply being human.
You may have noticed that sometimes these girls who are so poorly regarded by "righteous society" understand very well that many of their clients are after much more than sex. To quote one : "Some are simply ready to pay for some human company."
Well that may very well be sad. But shameful? No way! I've never done it myself, but I understand entirely. It's "extremely normal", if I dare say so.
I bet these girls said you were okay, a gentleman, or something of that sort. Wouldn't surprise me. They like people to remember they're more than just a body.

You know, Terry, if I were a girl and living in your area, I'd date you. Nothing to do with pity either : a fine person is always worthy of meeting.
I don't know, maybe you should "simply" try to know more the people living around you. Sometimes, your next-door neighbor might happen to be your future soulmate? I've never had much trust in the various typical "meeting structures". It might just be a prejudice of my lebanese viewpoint, but I've always felt these were essentially perceived (and therefore used) as a means for transient encounters, one-night stands... casual sex. Not at all my cup of tea. (my glass of booze?)

"it should be clear that all that emotion is not your friend."
Hey, this could be very relevant! Maybe you tend to focus too much on the negative things, perhaps even unconsciously putting yourself down. With the exception of overdeveloped egoes (and clearly you don't have that problem!), a positive attitude and self-image is always a good idea. In other words : try to love yourself, it might get others to love you too.
And I should listen to my own advice, sometimes. ;-)

"There isn't me and you, we are all the same thing"
My own paradigm is syncretic : I think both notions are valid, it depends on the circumstances and point of view.
A laser burst is a great number of photons, but they are in a very special synchronized state, which means they are equivalent to a single, gigantic quantum object. Distinctions are sometimes very clear, and sometimes very blurry.
We are both individuals and a whole, I beieve. Citizens, and a society. Humans, and part of all Life. Evolved primates, and immortal souls. Lower instincts, and divine generosity.

"do you believe in the incompleteness of the soul?"
I know this is not what you meant, Lucid, but to most educated thinkers, we're not just a soul driving a flesh body, both are a single entity. We are neither carnal nor spiritual, we are what we are, humans with a dual nature. An electron is neither a wave nor a particle, it is an electron, and may appear as a wave or a particle depending on circumstances and the point of view.
I see your "spiritual holistic" approach as not THE truth, but an important component that helps us come closer to the truth. I see it as important, but as something that should not become exclusive, or it might limit you after partly freeing you.

"The reason one seeks may not make for the healthiest of outcomes."
This might just be the most relevant sentence in the whole discussion. If you seek the love of a mate for the wrong reasons, chances are that you find the wrong love or mate. I think this is precisely the reason why so many celebrities can't have stable lives. Their notions are messed up, so it makes'em themselves mess up their choices, again and again.

"Of course, I don't doubt the power of the right woman to turn things around."
Yes, some persons can be a great light by themselves, illuminating those who meet them.
I always try to illuminate, and at the same time be enlightened by others' light.

"Yet, the interesting thing is that those lifts never come while I'm desperately seeking them out."
The real light is always the reflection of our inner one in others. Love cannot make a person loving if they have no love inside. But I like catalysts... :-)

"My only hope is that everyone will get exactly what they need at the time they need it."
Our only true duty is towards ourself, to become complete and harmonious beings, to be all we can be. Each of us has a path and a Truth to find within. Maybe this is the simple explanation to the meaning of life. The rest comes by itself, almost as a simple bonus.

"No one is asked to do anything that is not in alignment with their heart."
Man, you are so much the opposite of a dogmatig fanatic, it's almost scary. But in a good way dude. You know, like the hypnotic flame of a torch, you know it could burn, but all it does is light your way. Far out!

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

"A little like a bunch of match sticks become a superb ocean liner."

Hmm, never heard of that, sounds like a neat trick!

Anonymous said...

You know what the worst form of loneliness possibly is? Being alone in company. That's true isolation. (Pascal said)

Sometimes I do feel this way.

That is so true. The "you complete me" cliche is dangerous thinking. (Eolake said)

I agree Eolake. I guess I'm just really hurting over all this.


(Do I remember correctly that Lucid lives near the Dayton or Troy Ohio USA area? If he does, I wonder if he knows a lady who may want an honest man with a tremendous amount of love to give?

I'm sorry Lucid for putting you on the spot. Forgive my desperation.


From my experience and what I have observed, someone who is not wholly satisfied with himself and his life is not suited to be in a committed relationship...(Lucid said)

Maybe I'm not suited. But I still dream.

As I've told, I once loved very deeply. I "was in love". I wasn't loved back, at least not in that way. (Pascal said)

I was loved back deeply, but she cheated on me with an old high school flame.


"I'm ashamed to admit this but a couple of times I called an escort service because of my extreme need to feel human again."
Don't. Don't be ashamed. Nobody has the right to judge you for simply being human.
You may have noticed that sometimes these girls who are so poorly regarded by "righteous society" understand very well that many of their clients are after much more than sex.(Pascal said)

I'm glad you understand Pascal. And yes the girls told me I was a gentleman and treated them with respect. They knew I wanted the physical and the company itself.
Thanks for not calling me a dog or something. (I would never think that way of you anyway my friend. You are a trustworthy and understanding man.)

You know, Terry, if I were a girl and living in your area, I'd date you. Nothing to do with pity either : a fine person is always worthy of meeting. (Pascal said)

Thank you my friend. I believe you spoke from your heart of compassion and kindness. You never judge and that's a rare quality in a man.


"I wish I could find that SPECIAL LOVE everyone has talked about."
Ah, but be sure not everybody else has found it either. I'm still looking. With complete faith. :-)
(Pascal said)

I hope you find her my friend whether or not I ever do........

eolake said...
"A little like a bunch of match sticks become a superb ocean liner."


Too bad they couldn't form a loving female for me.
Thanks everybody. God Bless.

Anonymous said...

Dear Eolake and all the bloggers,would be an excelent thing for all of you about this major issue to wach at least once the masterpiece of one of my favorites movie director Michael Mann,"Heat",with Al Pacino and Robert De Niro,and all you'll found lotsa answers about loneliness and relationships.
With endless admiration and respect,always yours Paul Alexandru Cazacliu artmanro@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

Pascal said...
I think of the saying, "My heart has broken so many times it's now permanently open."


There's also lyrics by Jim Steinman (Meat Loaf rock singer writer) that goes, "I never knew a heart could break without making any sound.) The song is called, Is nothing sacred anymore?
Very moving song to say the least.

Anonymous said...

This is not a slam towards anyone, especially not you, terry. Surely we can all understand how you feel because we've all felt it at one time or another. (Lucid said)

I appeciate that Lucid, I really do. You are a very bright young man with a great future ahead of you. Thank you also for understanding my situation and taking the time to respond to it.
It means a great deal to me.

Anonymous said...

"A little like a bunch of match sticks become a superb ocean liner."
What, Eolake, you've never seen what those model buffs can build with matches? Like the Taj Mahal or a replica of the Titanic?

"I was loved back deeply, but she cheated on me with an old high school flame."
Okay, so she loved you back. But she was hopelessly immature.
Sex and love are not identical. But sincere and mature love should be inseparable from fidelity. I'm a guy, damn it, but I can't for the life of me picture myself desiring another woman if there is one I sincerely love. Passion is the best aphrodisiac, in my opinion. Tenderness, intimacy, affection, harmony...
Also, a couple means commitment, meaning trust. We are a monogamous society (in the principle, at least), and this is simply because we need exclusiveness for that specific form of love.
Which doesn't mean we can't LOVE more than one person. I'm just crazy about children. But in an other way, and I express it through protection, not sex. It's so simple that even animals know the difference!

An unfaithful spouse is either not in love, or not clear about themselves. I know, I know, sometimes passion in a couple goes through some difficult periods. But adultery? That's fighting fire with a flamethrower! Mature, sensible people either try to work things out, or agree to call it quits. They don't hurt one another.

"a bunch of match sticks [...] Too bad they couldn't form a loving female for me."
Um... better watch out for splinters then!!!
Now you know why Pinocchio had difficulties with the ladies. ;-)

"I never knew a heart could break without making any sound."
I forget where I heard this one : "God really did a great job designing the human heart. It is the only known thing which can continue to function normally after being broken into pieces."

"Thank you also for understanding my situation and taking the time to respond to it."
See? You're not as alone as you thought! :-)))

Anonymous said...

"God really did a great job designing the human heart. It is the only known thing which can continue to function normally after being broken into pieces."
(Pascal mentioned)

What a statement Pascal. I never heard that one. Thanks for sharing my friend.

Um... better watch out for splinters then!!!
Now you know why Pinocchio had difficulties with the ladies. ;-)
(Pascal joked)

That was very funny! You always crack me up! Where do you come up with such humorous comebacks? You make me smile and that's good for me my Lebanese friend. Again I must say, you have a wonderful outlook on life.
But so do most of the fine people here as well. I really enjoy reading Eolakes blog and his readers comments. I have always felt welcomed here and I highly recommend that my other cyber friends read His blog.
I always look forward to reading this blog. (It's on my favorites list along with the free newsletter Eolake provides.)

Anonymous said...

Dear Eolake,when you are in love with someone,you love her or him period,not matter what.faithful or unfaithful,because nobody is perfect,all of us how many times we are unfaithful to God,and each time He forgives us,and shall never give up on us,when you leave someone for jealousy reason you are a selfish person and a not trully loving one.If the person you are in love with enjoys the love of others persons and that makes her or him happy,why not enjoy her or his happyness?
With endless admiration and respect,always yours Paul Alexandru Cazacliu artmanro@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

"Where do you come up with such humorous comebacks?"
I'd rather not ask myself the question. Somehow, I feel safer not knowing about the darkest corners of my twisted mind. ;o)

Paul,
I'm not sure I understand everything you say. Do you mean that adultery from your mate would not bother you? Quite unusual.
I agree that such a thing can be forgiven. Sometimes. With a lot of understanding and effort. Or a taste for swinging! (In which case, it wouldn't be cheating, because the other one knows, agrees and participates.)

"all of us how many times we are unfaithful to God,and each time He forgives us"
Ah, yes, but God's situation is very different. He doesn't place His trust, life, and destiny in a single person, like people getting into a couple. He is perfect, and being betrayed won't hurt Him immensely, forever destroying His hope. God has great love and understanding for all of us, it's nothing like the situation of a monogamous involvement. A couple is an ensemble. God is outside the ensembles of humans, above it all. An example, an inspiration for forgiveness and understanding, but an unreachable ideal by definition.

Please, would you expand on this? It's getting interesting. Do you feel that in Terry's situation, you wouldn't have had a problem with infidelity from your wife? And what about if she chooses to suddenly leave you for another one breaking a sacred and essential commitment? No matter what you say, I'm sure it would hurt, a LOT.
I have only known the situation of loving a person who didn't love me back because she already loved another. Well, I know I wished her to be happy, but let me tell you, it didn't hurt any less. I simply didn't see any reason for the both of us to be miserable, since I had fond feelings for that peson. And yet, I felt it took a lot of moral courage not to give in to resentment. (Especially that she was clumsy, and left me with false hopes for months. Ouch.)

I'd say the heart can keep working after being broken because it is the symbol of life, and it heals amazingly. It always heals, again and again with no limit, that's its nature. But every time it is broken, a scar remains like a mark. It stops hurting, but you always feel it there.

Anonymous said...

Dear Pascal,what doesn't kill you makes you stronger or stranger(AEON FLUX).
I have lost the love of my life who left me for another man,and I forgived her even I'll never forget her,but I hope she's happy even I was full of sorrow,a such deep pain few can only imagine.I carved over a wall of my home:"Anca,always I'll love you even you'll have million children with other men"
With respect,yours Paul Alexandru Cazacliu artmanro@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

Do you feel that in Terry's situation, you wouldn't have had a problem with infidelity from your wife? And what about if she chooses to suddenly leave you for another one breaking a sacred and essential commitment? No matter what you say, I'm sure it would hurt, a LOT. (Pascal said)

I'm glad you asked him that Pascal.
Marriage is sacred. Suppose to be anyway. I kept imagining that other guy (whose name was Terry also) having sex with my wife and the sinking feelings that overcame me was suicidal thoughts. Even homicidal thoughts, though I would never do that intentionally. The Lord said to forgive.........He will revenge.
I wanted to vomit. Still do. That was nearly four years ago.


But every time it is broken, a scar remains like a mark. It stops hurting, but you always feel it there.(Pascal said)

Well put Pascal. My mark remains. So does yours. "And they lived happily ever after..."
No wonder they call them fairytales.

Anonymous said...

Dear Terry,Pascal said it too,God is above our world,only God is Perfect,and keeps always His promises.God also let to us the liberty to choose.
You can choose to move on and live,or stew in your own juices.
The stronger person is not the one who can vanquish the other people ,but the one who can vanquish his own ego and forgive the one he blames for his misfortune.You have to forgive yourself too,because you couldn't keep the flames of her passion for you alive and she started to look for it to somebody else,because this is the major motive the women are leaving a man for another one.
Look around you and you'll found beauty all over you,first make peace with yourself and the world,and then not only you shall can see it but you also shall can reach it.
Be more optimistic,look always first at the bright side of the things,otherwise the dark side shall eat you alive.
With great sympathy and consideration,yours Paul Alexandru Cazacliu artmanro@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

I'd rather say: "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger... if you're not left a cripple." I've seen people survive car accidents, and they don't always come out stronger! Just to put some perspective on that old saying.

Well, Paul, people may see your attitude in many possible ways, but it is unusual for sure. I think any woman receiving such dedicated love would be utterly foolish to throw it away.
Ah well, many men are fools, and many women also. I hope you can put it all behind you and rebuild your life and happiness.
By the way, before inviting a new fiancée at your house, perhaps you should have that wall repainted, eh? ;-) The past is the past. Keeping the wound open does no good. The best thing you can do is to move on, just like you advise others.

"Marriage is sacred. Supposed to be anyway."
Well, whatever your religion, or absence of one, it is considered sacred because it FEELS sacred. And rightfully so. It should inspire respect to those who commit into it.

"I kept imagining that other guy (whose name was Terry also)"
I once read an amazing but true news article. This one guy, he had perhaps 27 extra-marital affairs over the years. They all were named Mary, like his wife. A name fetish? Actually, no.
He was just concerned he might talk in his sleep and get caught by his missus!

Fairy tales, yes. Beautiful idealized stories that can never happen for real (just look at Lady Di's life!). And yet, you can live happily after. A selfish or stupid person that throws away the beauty of a sincere love is not worth remaining sad over. Or going to prison for! ;-)
Your best and sweetest revenge, as I see it, is to be happy in spite of her.

"My mark remains. So does yours."
Well, to be honest, they are very different. My mark remains, but more like a memento of an experience that made me more mature. Stronger, as Paul would say. :-) Had I been confronted to cheating after a commitment instead of initial rejection, it would've hurt much more. I have so little resentment today, that I accepted that this person and I remain friends. She's not the least bit mean. More like confused, has her own problems. "Met love for real" and then broke up, at least twice that I know of. All things considered, I got off luckier than these guys! No, I'm not bitter. Only wiser.

I have this personal philosophy of mine : "No matter how long you are granted, life is always too short and precious to waste in hating."
Hate is a waste of time and effort. The movies about a lone hero living for revenge never show us what happens AFTER his quest is over and his revenge extracted. After his only goal in life is achieved, what's left for him to live for? Nothing.

In other words, carpe diem.
If there is a God, then Retribution is His. I don't care about getting even, an eye for an eye, etc. I only care about being happy, and helping others be happy too whenever possible. (I love the sight of happiness!)

This is not to say, of course, that criminals should be left loose. They should be kept from doing any further harm. With no intent of spiteful vengeance, it's useless anyway. And it hurts the soul.

"You have to forgive yourself too,because you couldn't keep the flames of her passion for you alive"
Excuse me, not correct. The one getting deserted will always question his/her own part of responsibility (and that's very healthy), but there's not always one. Some immature people there's just no satisfying, they'll keep running from illusion to mirage, all their life.
Question yourself honestly if she leaves, but don't put all the blame on yourself. Unless you're a really horrible person, your mistakes may be partly explanations, but they're not excuses.
No marriage is a constant honeymoon. Living together requires efforts and understanding, from both sides.

"You get married because you think you have found the perfect mate. You stay married because you understand there is no perfect mate."

Eolake Stobblehouse said...

"Just to put some perspective on that old saying."

Yes, thanks for pointing that out. It is just obviously not true, otherwise we would all live forever, becoming stronger and stronger.

Anonymous said...

Dear Pascal.marriage isn't like military service or like to join the syndicate,once you get in you can't get out,you join someone to share your life with because you want a happier livelihood,but when somenthing goes wrong and you can't fix it despite of mutual efforts,if you aren't a masochist,you move on choosing another partner because the mariage isn't a purpose in itself,only a way to reach the ultimate one,to live your life to the full,each life is the gift supreme God gived to all of us,why do not take full vantage of it?
Of course,you can reply this is an egotist point of view,but what is the better choice,to live unhappy just because a commitment,when the mutual attraction is gone,or to move on giving space to your former partner to found a new one who can really enjoy a life with her or him?
As I mentioned before,the mariage isn't a purpose in itself,you can't reply like Neo in the "Matrix" series,why do you persist in your hopeless and pointless quest?"Because I choosed to(found out the truth about "The Matrix" and set free the human beings from its illusion and control,to give them the liberty to choose,the free will)
By the way,I don't live in that home any more,I wos evicted from there by the "Romanian Orthodox Church" for give it to a tourism agency as "she" gived all its properties for commercial purposes.That is a real commmitment broken by the ones that have as purpose to protect,serve and guide all the human beings,to serve God and not Mammon.As well as "The Roman Catholic Church",during of a voyage in Italy when I asked for a shelter,to achieve the fine arts study of mine in the "Homeland of Arts",a catholic priest serving in a school for foreigner students asked my "-What nation do you think I am?".I thought he was from a Scandinavian country but he replied to me:"-No,I'm Polack and I'm helping only my own,the ones pertaining to my nation.",even the school was for all the nations and above all he was a priest serving in an "Universal" Church.
As you can see I do really know a lot about commitment and betrayal,but even so I'm an very optimistic person,always looking first for the bright side of the things because,as I mentioned it before,otherwise the dark side shall eat me alive.
With respect and sympathy,yours Paul Alexandru Cazacliu artmanro@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

In other words, carpe diem.
If there is a God

Are you an atheist? Well, I suppose that's your choice. You think this whole thing so wonderfully designed was by pure accident? That takes quite an imagination........and perhaps some help from a bottle of Jack Daniels, but that's another story.

On the subject of marriage it's just easier to have many wives. At last count mine was 14, soon to be 15 (I'm engaged right now) but I'm not sure if the young woman is ready to fulfill her duties as a wife to me. She must undergo some spiritual testing first, but nevertheless she is determined to become a part of my family.
My good name will carry on for centuries to come. By limiting yourself to just one woman a man deprives himself of all the unique facets of true love.
Our tradition lives in harmony and unity and our marriages last a lifetime.
Think about it. Good day.

Anonymous said...

Oh, I'm certainly not a fanatic of the commitment. What makes it sacred to me is the love, that's all. A marriage without love shouldn't become a prison, clearly.
But it's always possible to call it quits without hurting one another by being deceitful and unfaithful BEFORE you decide the commitment is not working. It should be intended as a sincere life commitment, at least initially. If you have second thoughts from the start, you're already heading straight for the wall.
No, the mariage isn't a purpose in itself; love is. This is what feels sacred to me, be it from God or just from the human heart (it doesn't matter).
People today are SO losing the holy respect that love deserves. You won't see that happening to money any time soon! :-(

"By the way,I don't live in that home any more,I was evicted from there"
After what you did to that wall, I'm not surprised! (Just joking.)

A catholic priest [...] replied to me:"-No,I'm Polack and I'm helping only my own"
His "own"? So much for the Kingdom of Jesus on Earth... :-P

"I do really know a lot about commitment and betrayal,but even so I'm an very optimistic person"
Good for you. That's a very healthy and wise attitude if I ever saw one. Respect and sympathy to you too.

"If there is a God
Are you an atheist?"

Actually, no. I believe. I just acknowledge the fact that we cannot know from indisputable proof, only trust logical and subjective arguments. Therefore, I cannot know, but I choose to believe. It's a philosophic position, if you like.
This is probably in good part a reaction to the dogmatism of the priests I've met. They always behave as if God's existence is a FACT, while it is a BELIEF coming from a free choice. They also behave as if their side beliefs, often being blind dogma, were all as established as God's existence, and as untouchable. I don't want to believe in a God so insecure, that he can only exist if you believe in Him the way priests tell you to. They are humans, imperfect, and often VERY imperfect as it is notorious.

It's just that the atheist point of view, of rejecting everything simply because the Clergy are stupid, feels equally stupid to me. When somebody kills in the name of love, it's not love that you need to reject, but that somebody's attitude and lies.

"and perhaps some help from a bottle of Jack Daniels"
Well, Jack and I get along quite well, but we barely meet two or three times a year, tops. And always very briefly.
My real vice is chocolate. :-)

"it's just easier to have many wives. At last count mine was 14, soon to be 15"
As I asked on another thread, are these one at a time, or are you a Mormon Sir Luke?
(Because you don't sound muslim, and muslims are limited to four. You don't sound exactly like an African king, either...)

"By limiting yourself to just one woman a man deprives himself of all the unique facets of true love."
I suggest the principle of symmetry: should a woman also be entitled to several men? And if not, why that difference in standards?
Pushed to the extreme, why deprive yourself from half of mankind, instead of becoming bi-sexual?

I'm all for loving everybody. But I conceive marital love as something exclusive. Call me hopelessly romantic.

Anonymous said...

"My real vice is chocolate. :-)"

And mine chocolate milk. (And powdered donuts) You're in good company, friend.

Anonymous said...

They always behave as if God's existence is a FACT.

Nature proves He's a fact. No I'm not Muslim, nor Mormon, I'm just me. I don't subject myself to any one religion.
I do as I do.


should a woman also be entitled to several men?

If she choses too. Yes. That's her choice. Nobody controls another persons body.

Pushed to the extreme, why deprive yourself from half of mankind, instead of becoming bi-sexual?


I find that quite vulgar but if they choose to do so it's up to them.

Anonymous said...

You still haven't satisfied my curiosity, Sir Luke : why do you say "wives" like that? Does that mean you have many exes, or many wives at once right now? You must admit, the way you talk about it is ambiguous.

"Nobody controls another persons body."
We're in total agreement here. Marriage is in no way a slavery or a prison, nor should it be. It's just that when you marry someone, you freely make a promise to be faithful and exclusive. Breaking such a promise is doing something wrong and hurting somebody who put their trust in you.
We are all, always, free of our own actions. If we want to do something wrong, nothing keeps us from making such an unwise choice. This is precisely why we believe in reward and/or accountability for our deeds. Because when we do something, it is our own free doing. Cheating on your mate isn't, technically, "forbidden". You can do it, you're free with your body. But you shouldn't do it, because it's wrong after the commitment you already chose to make.
I don't condemn or judge anybody who has sex outside marriage... if they're both unmarried! Translation : if they haven't freely promised to limit themselves, their moral and physical love in that form, to one person until something do them apart. Death, divore, whatever.

"Nature proves [God]'s a fact."
Again, that is a "conviction" proof, not an objective scientific one. Up to this day, the very existence of the Universe points to no existence of a creating entity. Neither does it point to any absence! Einstein was a laic believer, while Hawking seems to be an atheist. The question remains whole, whether we believe God exists because it is so, or because we project our mental conceptions over Nature and the Universe. One example : why isn't monogamy a constant in the animal kingdom, instead of being just one norm among many???
As I said, my believing is a choice. In spite of both the absence of scientific elements and the clear contradictions in what the Clergy asserts. I bet the "real" God is quite different from anything we candidly picture: old bearded guy in robe, four-armed Shiva, Native American Nanabozho the Great Rabbit, etc.

And there still remains one other essential question : supposing -or admitting- God indeed exists (as I myself believe), why choose one particular religion over any another? They all claim to hold the unique Truth about "what and how", and each appear convincing enough for several million people. It seems that more than 90% simply follow the faith in which they were raised. Nearly everybody agrees in believing, but not in the manner. This leaves room for some reasonable doubt in that area, doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

Wow. Well said.