You know if I was a priest/minister/church official (of any one of most of the religions around the planet), I would really hope that either:
1: God does not in fact exist.
2: God actually did select me and my peers to speak for him on an exclusive basis like I'd been told and accepted as given.
or
3: God is a lot more forgiving than people are told.
Otherwise I'd worry about what would happen when he finds out we'd been going around telling people what to do in His name, and making money on it.
(Personally I think in fact no 3 seems likely, so they'll be all right. But I'm not the one going around claiming to speak for Him, so that's their own karma to resolve.)
24 comments:
Gee, first comment within three minutes!
Some may imagine I wrote on this subject to get lots of comments. In fact I wrote on it *despite* the possibility of heated debate. I don't like controversy. But I would be remiss if I did not write a deep-felt thought just because some people might get mad.
religion is man's idea. Christ is God's answer. it's easier for me to believe that God (Jesus) created the heavens and the earth than believe it happened out of the blue.
it takes A LOT of faith to believe that this was all just an accident.
but i do believe eolake that God does speak to mankind through his actions and signs.
but i don't believe the good Lord has spoken to silver-spoon bush telling him to invade a country and steal their oil and kill their people like dumb animals or rodents. or force feed democracy to them when they clearly DON'T WANT IT!
bush has been labeled the " Butcher of Baghdad."
The Lord Jesus NEVER FORCED HIMSELF ON NO ONE.
BTW.....Do you know why Bush won't attack North Korea or Iran? Think about it. What's the ONE thing that Iraq has that these other two countries lack? O I L.
No science laboratory needed here. The truth though (sadly) hasn't set the population free in Iraq.They are still being gunned down, raped and murdered in barbaric make-shift prisons by both the american and coalition forces.
no wonder there's a civil war going on there and our troops are being blown up and beheaded.
no, I can't imagine my Lord Jesus walking around with an AK-47 telling the crowds, "either you do what I say or I'll gun you down!"
Nor do I see Jesus stealing all the black gold over there and selling it at the pumps for $3.00 per gallon.
This isn't the Lord of my life.
Mr Stobblehouse,
I have the dinstinguished honour to inform you that not only does God hate your guts even more than He does Sweden, but that your private VIP suite in Hell is already booked indefinitely, to teach you not to think when there are holy men in robes (and eventually beards) whose self-appointed job it is.
Sincerely yours,
Flaming Bold Anonymous.
P.S.: The Church of Burning Vengeance cordially reminds you that in order to get the Beyond sanction of a doctrin, one most probably has to believe in it. So, if you would be so kind as to believe what we just promised you without question, this would be greatly appreciated, okay? Please. Thank you.
Terry,
Newsflash, my friend : Iran has A LOT of O.I.L. And they're full of natural gas. But what they DON"T have, is a decade-long state of maintained weakness that SHOULD have made them an easy prey... on paper.
As for North Korea, well, who cares about their stupid rice when you can have Condoleezza? :-P
When in doubt, ask yourself : "Who would Jesus invade, kidnap, incarcerate, tortu, er, interrogate, and execute?" I'm sure these simple guidelines will help you see the wisdom in the enlightened leadership of genialistic George W. Christ, our newest saviour and fearless Crusade leader.
(P.S.: Don't worry for my safety, Heebee-GeeBee doesn't know the meaning of the word spelled S.A.R.C.A.S.M., so I'll be fine.)
(P.S.: Don't worry for my safety, Heebee-GeeBee doesn't know the meaning of the word spelled S.A.R.C.A.S.M., so I'll be fine.)
that's true pascal, bush doesn't know much about anything does he?
as far as Iran goes......well, limited reserves of O.I.L. but the country isn't listed as THE SECOND LARGEST PRODUCING COUNTRY of Oil like IRAQ has, Saudia Arabia being number one!
Film at eleven :)
It's always confused me how some people can act like they're so sure about God's intentions. When you get right down to it, we're all equally clueless about why we're here or what God wants if there is a God. What some of these priests and such are doing basically amounts to spreading lies about God.
"Film at eleven"
Back to topic, there's a live (and probably very lively!) debate monday evening on french TV France2 (around eleven PM), on the theme "Can Islam still be criticized today?"
I'm definitely taping this.
Might be as entertaining as a Jerry Springer special, AND educational...
Today's Islam feels frighteningly reminding of the Catholic Inquisition. No inside moderate voice dares to speak up. The debate was motivated by the recent incident of a french teacher wo's marked for death after writing a critical tribune on islam in a newspaper. And he has less personal bodyguards than the Pope!
(Relax, he's under the Witness Protection Program now...)
One of the most truly humble men I have ever known, humble and I would even say holy, was a Trappist priest named Father Vincent.
One of the most memorable books I've ever read was Diary of A Country Priest by ______ (forget author) about a truly Christlike priest and how he is reviled by the townspeople for being weak and ill, and not bringing in money.
The woman who washes trays in the school cafeteria at my school has a mental disability (I have many stories of such) and she is so joyous and simple, everyone loves her, and I think she is the divine's holy priest too. Her sacrament is that smile.
There's a bible story, don't remember the details (Pascal, help!) about a man named Balaam whom God is guiding to go down a certain road. He is riding on his donkey, and Balaam wants to go his own way, doesn't listen to the still small voice within telling him to go "left." The donkey opens its mouth and words of wisdom come braying out of it, instructing it's owner to do God's will. I forget if he listens or not. The old saying goes, "If God can use Balaam's ass, He can sure use me."
Or a priest.
a tray washer,
an entrepreneur . . . .
Today's Islam feels frighteningly reminding of the Catholic Inquisition.
Mind you, it's not Islam but the people claiming to be its messengers.
It is my belief that the core message in nearly all religions is pretty much the same and all those "big" differences are intentional misrepresentations by people who have stakes in there being discord between people.
Unfortunately it always worked and still does - in my opinion that is the real enemy, not someone of a different religion.
As for the main difference between Iran and Iraq, I'm with Pascal:
Iraq had been conquered in the first war 12 (?) years ago and bombed continuously since - they were supposed to be easy prey.
Iran definitely isn't, by any measure.
And even though their oil reserves are not as easily accessible as Iraq's, they are nothing to cough at and in working order, with the needed pipelines (through Iraq to Israel) already in place. In fact they used to be one of the biggest oil suppliers for the West under the Shah.
Meanwhile the sources in Iraq have been so seriously damaged that they are not nearly producing as much as was hoped/projected.
What some of these priests and such are doing basically amounts to spreading lies about God.
jess, you're right........many spread lies about God. Sadly too many people are deceived as well.
and bram, religions bug me as well. i don't like the term itself.
being born-again and being religious ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. One leads to heaven the other leads to damnation for an empty soul. (Romans 10:9)
Laurie,
You really should adopt the Wikipedia reflex. It's almost better than "googling" something!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam
Too bad they don't seem to have anything on crop circles.
Ronald,
My father recently told be that one of the most decent people he ever met was a very pious muslim. A guy who did the five daily prayers, strictly fasted at Ramadan, etc... And didn't think twice before befriending a decent Christian. So yes, extremely religious jerks aren't good representatives of a religion.
As I said recently, I've started reading the Quran, and while there's stuff frighteningly easy to instrumentalize, if you look with the right state of mind you can find in there practically all the bases of decency. By "today's Islam", I meant the equivalent of "today's Church", but Islam has no official hierarchy to refer to, be it the decent guys or those foaming at the mouth. The latter unfortunately holding the decision power most of the time in 2006...
Including in the U.S.A. :-(
"Iraq [was] supposed to be easy prey. Iran definitely isn't, by any measure."
As measured, say, to "easy prey" Iraq?... :-P
"Meanwhile the sources in Iraq have been so seriously damaged that they are not nearly producing as much as was hoped/projected."
Forgive me for not crying over the losses of Haliburton & associates.
Adam,
Have I told you that I hate "Pascal" jokes? No? Oh. Well, um, I do now, so there!
Just you wait, given a brief time, I'll come up with a very witty "Adam" joke of my own! So, I'll get back to you as soon as there's peace in the Middle East.
And then, you'll be crying like Adam Zel in distress.
Better start training with EmoTrance right now...
"Meanwhile the sources in Iraq have been so seriously damaged that they are not nearly producing as much as was hoped/projected."
Forgive me for not crying over the losses of Haliburton & associates.
O.I.L. Yes. That's what it's ALL ABOUT! At Least Someone get's it!
It seemed impossible that Wikipedia would not have anything on cropcircles, and indeed they do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circles
Terry:
O.I.L. Yes. That's what it's ALL ABOUT! At Least Someone get's it!
I think we all "get" that.
What we didn't agree with was your suggestion that Iran hasn't been attacked yet because it wouldn't have much of the very same stuff.
Iran does have lots of oil, so the difference is probably something else and we made some suggestions as to what they are.
Ronald said, "It is my belief that the core message in nearly all religions is pretty much the same."
Well, that's the crux isn't it? Har, "crux," get it? Get it? "Crux," har har ... :) ...
I think, first, that an adherent to any of the major religious would either reject that idea, because accepting it reduces his power; accept it, because rejecting it makes him seem politically incorrect and therefore reduces his power, or pooh-pooh it (denying that acceptance or rejection matters) because acceptance or rejection makes him seem hyperactively worried about his own veracity and therefore reduces his power.
Religion is about power. Of course, they all of them recognize that fact and generally admit it right off the bat. "God is" something supreme, big, powerful.
I'm in agreement with most who address the "typically religious" people (I call them over-pious, or just zealots), and their common hypocrisies. You must do this, or that, or the other, and do as I say, not as I do.
In fact, the very idea that a man is somehow "inherently flawed," is a neat logical cadge that allows religious adherents to succeed at enforcing those things that they don't perform. Don't have homosexual sex, or sex with those over whom you are in a dominant power role. So say the Coingressmen who are bally-hoo-ing "family values" and who are concurrently seducing congressional pages. If they were to admit that man were somehow required to live up to his own dictates, their religious zeal for family values would instantly be destroyed by their real and true actions.
But instead, they have the neat trick, of getting out of it by saying man fell a long time ago. Yes, I seduced a page; but that doesn't mean my religious zeal for family values is wrong, it just means I personally am weak.
But right about family values. I'm weak, lame, lazy, unable to live up to my own rules (and therefore, quite obviously, not a good candidate for giving out rules to other people). And you should do what I say.
But is that "religion" or just "hypocrisy." Why does the modern world think, so readily, that the two go hand in hand?
Finally, about Islam. No, I disagree with the apologists, who suggest that the fundamentalists and "Islamists" aren't "real Muslims." I think they ARE real Muslims, more's the pity. In fact, if we aren't to judge a religion on the basis of its major international impact, then why would we bother to judge it at all? I'm sure there are all sorts of peaceful, quiet, nice mousey people in Dearborn and Tiblisi who don't want to kill anyone and who go to mosque regularly.
They aren't Muslims. They're regular citizens duped into joining a broken institution. Just like most non-zealous Christians. Why are we being "nice" to a broken institution just because it seems politically incorrect to complain about Islam?
Dangit, people who RUN Islam are screwed up. To a large percentage, in great degree, at huge disadvantage to many kind people who happen to be members of their club, they advocate violence, death, murder, strange backwards pre-Enlightenment thinking, chopping off hands, and the whole lot of crappy stuff. Therefore, I REJECT ISLAM. Simple.
If Islam comes up with some theological leaders who direct the religion into the capacity to cope with the REAL world (I won't say "modern" or any other loaded word), the one that ACTUALLY EXISTS NOW, then maybe I'll invite Islam back into my good books. If Islam has major international impact that reduces war, feeds the hungry, eliminates that idiotic annual stampede (a ritual which has obviously outlived its usefulness), and in general makes Islam something other than it is right now in REALITY, then maybe in reality I'll think Islam has changed.
Christianity might need a similar adjustment.
I think we all "get" that.
What we didn't agree with was your suggestion that Iran hasn't been attacked yet because it wouldn't have much of the very same stuff.
ok ron, gotcha. maybe silver-spoon bush doesn't want to attack iran because we are already stretching our military thin as it is and america is tired of this oil war anyway. bush ignores the economy, education, health care, helping the poor, etc.
his bumbling approach to katrina was humiliating to the victums to say the least. can't wait for him to leave office.
F.I.:
Therefore, I REJECT ISLAM. Simple.
Following the same, indeed simple, logic, I assume that you also reject freedom and democracy - just look at the atrocities committed by the people running it, or at least claiming to run it (same, and just as simple, as with Islam).
Terry:
I don't think Bush doesn't want to attack Iran, rather that he (at least for now) doesn't dare to.
Of course he's got a bit of a problem there because the US economy depends on oil being relatively cheap.
I have a feeling that if Bush and his masters had the money and the support, they would quite happily make the whole planet one big US colony. Or rather a colony Under Them, for it has very little to do with US as such.
Or rather a colony Under Them, for it has very little to do with US as such.
That's surely not beyond them, but not exactly a new idea, either, and with around 700 foreign military bases in 130 countries, employing 500,000 personnel, there's certainly an
impressive presence (and influence).
Ronald:
Nice theory. In so far as "freedom" and "democracy" are the governments by which certain oppressive elected officials castigate and destroy little brown people, then yes, I reject "freedom" and "democracy" in those forms. When and if reform happens, I'll re-accept "freedom" and "democracy" into my pantheon. :)
But really, I don't think that's what we mean (who is "we" anyway?) by those terms. What we often mean by those terms, is the OPPOSITE of what G.W. Bush is imposing on Iraq, for example, so I'd have to say I LIKE "freedom" and "democracy."
My point about Islam is, simply, that I reject its current form. As a side-point, I do concede that there are plenty of people out there who are decent folks and also worship in what they call an Islamic or Muslim manner. But that's not the issue here. There are always plenty of dupes, a few smart people inside the asylum. I'm one in the "democracy" system, I hope.
I would say, their perception of (as they might put it) "what Islam really is" or "what Islam ought to be" is, to me, the OPPOSITE of the truth. In fact, "what Islam really is," is something horrific that is destroying and killing. Those who wish to change the negative impact of their religion are free to try, and until they succeed, unfortunately, they'll be wrong about their "really is" interpretation.
You can say the same about "democracy" or "freedom" but I think you'd be inaccurate. "Freedom" REALLY IS something free, not something oppressive. Bush is misusing the name "freedom" to oppress (if you believe that's what he's doing).
I realize I've contracted myself. I've said that the term "Islam" requires a definition that is directly related to its ancillary public effects, whereas the term "freedom" is allowed to stand back from any current practical misuse of the term and instead stand for something idealized and bigger than reality. I've used different rules for different words.
Yes indeed. That's my point. "Islam" and "Christianity" and "Parliamentary Monarchy" are human inventions, systems that muddle around and change and get into different modes than what they were initially intended. "Freedom" and "democracy" and "truth" and "justice" exist outside the system by which they might currently be construed. So, for the former category, the "Islam"-like words, you have to look at their practical impact and their current manifestations and demand change if you perceive evils. For the other category, the "freedom"-like words, you have to look at their ideal representations and hope to try to make your small petty human systems live up to them.
In my opinion. :)
Dude, the vast majority of Muslims aren't psychos blowing stuff up in the Middle East. Most of them live in Southeast Asia, and the second most of them live in North Africa. Islam is the second most practiced religion in the world(or the first depending on how general you are), and most of them are perfectly normal, law-abiding citizens. It's only a very small percentage of them that are acting stupid. You can't judge the whole institution based on what just a few of these guys are doing. As far as I'm concerned, Islam is as good(and bad) as any other religion.
Jes,
Is that short for "Jesus"?
Just wondering. ;-)
Eolake,
I could've sworn I searched adequately in Wikipedia just a few days ago!
Well, "Thou shalt not swear in vain", right? ;-)
Maybe this is just another impossible-to-explain mystery about crop circles. One day there's nothing to see, the next they're all over the place! Spooky...
:o)
"O.I.L. Yes. That's what it's ALL ABOUT!
- I think we all "get" that."
Well, I sure wish I could "get" MY share of the pie. Everybody else seems to.
"Oil's" not well for all of us. :-P
"Well, that's the crux isn't it? Har, "crux," get it? Get it? "Crux," har har ... :) ..."
Relax, F.I., we get the message.
I've seen worse puns.
Remember, I chat a lot with Adam. ;o)
"think, first, that an adherent to any of the major religions would either [...]"
You see, F.I., you too can be very aptly confusing at times... :-)
"zealots[...] You must do this, or that, or the other, and do as I say, not as I do."
Bis repetita placent. See previous paragraph.
"So say the Coingressmen who are bally-hoo-ing "family values" and who are concurrently seducing congressional pages."
Well, the pages weren't actually family members, right? Which explains why good King George is officially standing beside the good knight in shining armor who's being unjustly accused of symbolic incest by the enemies of the Holy Kingdom...
This zealots hypocrisy phenomenon reminds me of the former Soviet Union. Now, why can't I find this thought comforting? Perhaps because I shouldn't have read pernicious propaganda like Animal Farm. Moo!
"that doesn't mean my religious zeal for family values is wrong, it just means I personally am weak."
"That also means that being such a sincere defender of the values which I am honestly and spontaneously confessing to not following at (very few) times, I am automatically absolved and proven humbly worthy of continuing to criticize others, because my position's duties are more important than my occasional weaknesses, even a saint sins 70 times a day. It's a tough job, but somebody has to dedicate himself to it. Don't thank me, please, it's a pleasure. My reward is in Heaven."
Hey, looks like I have aptitudes for going into politics!!!
But is that "religion" or just "hypocrisy."
Allow me to suggest "theocrisy"...
"Why does the modern world think, so readily, that the two go hand in hand?"
Because hypocrisy and clergy go d*** in p***** since the invention of political prostitution. I know, hard to progress in any direction in such a position. It has its ups and downs...
I disagree with the apologists, who suggest that the fundamentalists and "Islamists" aren't "real Muslims."
This all sums up to the position you hold towards religion in general, and how much distinction you make between Faith and clergy. I think the mention of the "Holy" Inquisition IS relevant.
In any case, at some point it becomes useless to debate, because it all goes down to every person's understanding of religion.
I've read an atheist's opinion that he despises agnostics, because they choose not to choose, "and therefore not to think". Well, when you can never KNOW, only believe, I think it wise not to take a final stand on anything. I have serious reserves on much of what is said in the Gospel (the reference of my religion), and I won't take any of it litterally. Which makes me an inside infidel , the worst possible kind, to some zealots. But I choose to take all the good I find in it, following my conscience, and I'm pretty sure if God is the only one with the right to judge me I don't have much to worry about.
If I HAD much to worry about by being honest and sincere, it would mean I've been duped by lies from the wrong God, and I'd owe Him no loyalty. Love cannot be commanded by force or fear.
Now, naturally, I also worry today about the acting power of those who want to impose such a "God", because they can do a lot of harm. In Islam, they are very much in power, and have effectively brainwashed most of the populations with their "new and improved" brand of detergent. As you say, "They're regular citizens duped into joining a broken institution." But is the institution RELIGION or CLERGY? To each his opinion, really. There is no universal answer.
I remember how hard it was to remove the thorn bushes that got deeply intricated with the roses in my grandmother's garden over the years. Too close, too similar... but worth the effort! (I like that image.)
"that idiotic annual stampede"
(^_^) Allow me to play the Devil's advocate here. A major part of the "stampede", precisely the one that usually causes some regular, um, "accidents", is the lapidation of the statues representing Satan. Islam totally rejects all idols as a rule of thumb. Idols are satanic and mislead you away from Allah. So, we cast stones at these statues representing Satan to make a point to Satan. Because the statues ARE Satan (which explains the frequent over-enthusiatic slip-ups). So, we lapidate idols because we refuse to believe in them. Um... er... was that convincing?...
"his bumbling approach to Katrina was humiliating to the victims to say the least. can't wait for him to leave office."
Forgive me for not following the numbers closely, but... just how many people were killed by 9/11, and how many by the incompetence related to Katrina?
Maybe to ask the question in itself is to answer it...
Ronald,
"Of course he's got a bit of a problem there because the US economy depends on oil being relatively cheap."
Just how much would you be ready to pay for cheap oil? I mean, look at the Iraq tab so far...
(Rhetorical question!!!)
Say, has anybody noticed before me what the initials of "King George Bush" spell out? Nineteen-eighty-four? Six-hundred-sixty-six? Please, can somebody help me out?
I'm sure there must be a Sign to be found in this riddle. :-P
Just like the "Tom Marvolo Riddle"...
"There are always plenty of dupes, a few smart people inside the asylum. I'm one in the "democracy" system, I hope."
Are you saying the "democracy" system is an asylum? Well, I would silence you with a very clever retort, but I hate fighting with my roommates, so...
"I have a feeling that if Bush and his masters had the money and the support, they would quite happily make the whole planet one big US colony. Or rather a colony Under Them, for it has very little to do with US as such."
It has EVERYTHING to do. The new dollar bill will read: "In George We Trust", according to wwWildConspirations.com
Final,
I'm assuming that what you say regarding "what Islam really is" applies to today's Christians as well. And to extremist Bible-justified Zionism. Etc., etc., etc.
In any case, I've felt all my life (since I was a naive kid) that sanctity-justified claimed flawlessness was a VERY big problem. I loathe the "Taboo-don't touch-don't question" labels of ALL kinds. Religion, Democracy, Justice, Security...
I fully agree with you that religions as we know them today are mostly (to say the least) human inventions. It's amazing, really! A jew, a muslim, a christian, are positive they worship the exact same historical God, yet each is convinced that HIS way of praying and following is the only legitimate/correct one! And why is it that God doesn't bother settling this, hunh?
Religious laws? Liturgy? Don't get me started! ):-P
The universalist Baha'i faith was founded on a similar reflection : that the styles are many, but the Truth is one. Ergo, in their native Iran, they're "merrily" persecuted as abominable heretics. No comment.
"Freedom" and "democracy" and "truth" and "justice" exist outside the system by which they might currently be construed.
Good luck trying to explain that to KGB. :-(
I think today's muslim world deliberately mixes both meanings of "Islam" : the community of worshipers and the founding philosophy, to shield the former from any questioning under the alibi of the latter's "untouchability". An untouchability which in itself is arbitrary.
"As far as I'm concerned, Islam is as good(and bad) as any other religion."
Not hard to confirm with a quick research. Problem is, Islam hasn't undergone its Renaissance yet, it's usually clinging to concepts 13 centuries old, and during the last couple of centuries, it has gone steadily the opposite way of any civilized self-reflecting. Usually.
There are exceptions, naturally. For instance, a 1990 decree in Tunisia prohibits the symbol of women submission which is the veil.
I'm afraid the muslim world tends to reject any modernity that would give them the impression of giving in to the "satanist american influence", since "America is at the Jewish Lobby's every command" and therefore everything about it has to be bad. I'm over-simplifying, but you get the general idea. Also, the regimes in these countries are very frequently corrupt to the bone (well, d'uh!), and very happy to see the popular resentment diverted against the "Crusading West", as long as they manage to keep religious extremism under control. But the recent elections results in Egypt, Palestine, etc. suggest that if the arabs are dumb enough to follow the "faith argument" of extremists, they're not stupid enough to overlook the rotting in their current regimes, and forcibly want some change, any change, sanctioned by Allah if possible. They haven't understood the lesson of Iraq : compared to anarchic rule/war between religious extremists and milicias, even abhorred Saddam's regime was the lesser of two evils. By far.
Things are definitely going to get worse before they get better.
I have long reached this certitude : Al-Qaeda and affiliates have been taking over the teaching of islamic religion all through the world, since the days where Saudi Arabia AND the USA thought nothing but good about fighting the communist ideology by financing fanaticized religion. "Opposing extremes", how clever. And today, worldwide wahhabism is well established. Too well. It's merged with the average muslim culture over the decades. "We have lovingly planted thorns and weeds all across the garden, and the bushes have gotten out of control."
Pun intended. ):-P
Real change can only come from within. Outside-imposed democracy in Gaza has proved its practical failure. But change today has become very difficult. The Iraqi fiasco is Bin Lulu's wildest dream come true, between Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, and the scapegoating(?) of Lyndie England and the likes of her. I sincerely hope the USA help the inner change in the rest of the world by changing themselves from within at the next elections. Wishful thinking.
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