Notes on life, art, photography and technology, by a Danish dropout bohemian.
When you drink the water, remember the river.
Tuesday, June 09, 2009
Bullfight turnaround
Bull wins bullfight. You might like to see it if you like to see tables turned on what many consider a cruel "sport", but be warned: the pictures are gruesome.
20 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Not particularly gruesome. Although I wouldn't wish that on someone, you can't say those guys aren't begging for it. Some commenters have tried to defend the practice as tradition.
The images aren't terribly gruesome. It's a shame an animal like that has to die for the cheap entertainment of humans.
I guess it's good that the matador survived; if he re-enters the bullring in the future, it'll give another bull an opportunity to punch another hole in him.
But isn't it, somehow, just as gruesome to watch a bull being forced into a rigged "fight" with a man and getting slowly, bloodily killed just for "entertainment" purposes? It's one thing to kill animals in order to feed. We're omnivores, after all. And still, we have very strict rules about the proper, minimally cruel way to kill our food. But so-called bullfighting? I read very in-depth books about it. Let me sum it up to you, the way it goes:
- The bull is put in an arena. It's GOT to be a bull that's never "fought", otherwise it's deemed dangerous. Because, of course, if it learns how things goes, it might get efficient. Less naive. The man, on the other hand, has trained with a great many calves, then progressively older animals. The man is a veteran of the thing. Whatever the issue of the sporting confrontation, the bull must die afterwards. Can't let a bull live that's had time to think this matter over. No. Witnesses. - The middle of the arena is considered the Bull's turf. A man should never, ever go on the turf of a live bull. Because on the sides, are plenty of wooden plank barriers for the valliant human veteran to seek shelter behind. - The Bull is "prepared" for the torero, a.k.a. the matador. "Matador" in Spanish means "the killer", BTW. First, a couple of picadors (spearmen) on armored horses stick their spear in the bull, to wound it and make it bleed. Long spears, allow for maintaining a safe distance. The bull starts bleeding. That's the goal. - Then come the banderilleros. Three of them (or is it 3 picadores and 2 banderilleros?) each stick a pair pointy sticks in the bull's flesh. These banderilles, again, are designed to stay in place, like harpoons, dangling with every move, and ensuring a nice, continued hemorrhage that will weaken the beast for the brave matador. - Which will then make a very amusing fool of the bovine by shaking a rag just in front of its face, to get it all running in circles, getting tired more and more, and all the time generously bleeding. A good corrida, hombre, is one where at least half of the bull has turned the color of fresh blood. - Then, when the bull is about as feisty as a tortured American spy in the hands of the Bora-Bora Talibans, the matador hides a sword behind his muleta (the rag), and having checked that the bull is almost incapable of moving further and desperate for breath, he gets close, slowly... slowly... and with a gesture honed by lengthy practice on dozens of animals, he stabs with his sword at precisely the right place and angle to kill the bull. - Then, if the frail and brave human has indeed not needed the other humans to hurry in mass at his rescue and interfere with the fight because he was about to lose, if the manly latino has proven his virility to the ladies in the audience, he gets to cut off trophies from his opponent. Usually, the tail and both ears. As a souvenir. Or as a present to his sweetheart. - The bull, I believe, will get eaten. Hope you don't get too much arena sand, or metal bits, in your scallop. Anyway, you know one thing : this was quality meat, you leisurely saw how it moved, and what its juice looked like. Olé.
You know what? It's interesting, really, how this rather objective and cold description sounds. To give an honest and complete report, the following details should be noted: - The brave fighting human often takes on this activity to, as they say in Lebanon, "bury poverty". Usually originating from very poor families, they become national stars, and enjoy wealth, women, etcaetera, you know the drill. - The human also wears a very pretty costume while he's slowly killing bulls in public. (Slaying kittens would be deemed far less impressive and manly, that's for sure). The bull starts naked, but ends up in a very nice matching shade of red. - The bull enjoys a rather nice life BEFORE the corrida. It's got to look good, so it's well fed and all. But I expect a life of abstinence in order for sexual frustration to make the "volunteer" more... dynamic.
I think bullfighting is one of the reasons why no eventual extra-terrestrials would want to make contact with our species. Beating one's wife on a daily basis seems like a civilized passtime in comparison. People in un-urbanized places, like the Amazon forest, hunting to eat, I have no damn right to criticize. But "sportive" hunting, or for that matter any killing of a living sentient being with no need, and even worse for "fun"? Plain barbaric.
Proponents of bullfighting in southern France love to argument and bleat that it's a tradition. Well, so's wife beating in Saudi Arabia, beheading infidels in Afghanistan, or for that matter, torture in medieval Europe. Thank you so much, Mister conservative Dick Cheney, for keeping our jolly old European traditions alive on the New World. Three cheers for Viceroy Richard ang King George the Second!
Tradition says, Man is the master of all there is, power makes right. Thus spake Allah and the Law of the Jungle Caves. But you'll have to excuse me for now, it's time for the Masked Rapist to make his evening patrol. Ah, let's not forget my trusty chloroform. Chloroforming and raping make me feel SO manly.
But isn't it, somehow, just as gruesome to watch a bull being forced into a rigged "fight" with a man and getting slowly, bloodily killed just for "entertainment" purposes?
Yes, it is. The idea is barbaric. Just not particularly hard to look at it. It would be hard to watch a real bullfight, though, at least for me. I guess it's only immoral to have people fight each other to the death.
It's one thing to kill animals in order to feed. We're omnivores, after all.
It does seem possible to exist as herbivores, and be healthy. And after all other primates are, like the gorilla. (I know, we only have a very distant common ancestor.)
Proponents of bullfighting in southern France love to argument and bleat that it's a tradition.
"It does seem possible to exist as herbivores, and be healthy." Yes and no. I've documented myself on the medical consequences of vegetarianism. It's got inconveniences. Strict vegetarianism tends to upset our non-herbivore digestive tract, because animal proteins are far easier to digest. (This is why gorillas have such a big belly. It's the natural volume of their vegetarian intestines.) And veganism, which shuns all foods of animal origins, including eggs and dairy products (why do that, beats me) causes iron and B-group vitamin deficiencies, among other things. The only objective inconveniences of the omnivorous regime, are the cardiovascular effects of saturated animal fat (avoid fatty red meat then), and the increased colon cancer risk from lack of fibers. So just eat sensibly and in a balanced way, and quit worrying.
Now, the ethical implications of us killing animals to feed, that's another debate. (I think you mentioned on my blog, JD, that Nature is intrinsically cruel, which contradicts my claim that God created the whole Universe as good. But I still say galaxies are yummy!)
"One of the lamest rationalizations going." Well, at least they bleat it, they don't moo it! "Say it, don't spray it."
"I've seen worst." Let's not start a competition. These lebanese eyes have seen more than they wished to witness. Besides, I never play the game of "mine is bigger than yours" with women. ;-) Remember when Arnie said this to Red Sonja about their mutual chests? Mr Olympia I am not, so I'll leave such bragging to the Groping Governator.
There are places in Spain where bullfighting is illegal? Well, I've learnt something today. The "tradition" of bullfighting? It's spainful.
There are places in Spain where bullfighting is illegal? Well, I've learnt something today. The "tradition" of bullfighting? It's spainful.
The tradition is disgusting (mainly the torture of the animals, but also the medieval macho mentality surrounding it), I’ll never defend it, but it runs so deep that I don’t think it’ll ever be ruled out. It’s a taboo in politics. Presidents will dare society (and the Catholic Church) with same-sex marriage, abortion and whatever but, open up a debate about ruling out bullfighting? Nobody will go there.
I believe this is still the only region where bullfighting is ruled out… Probably because this is the remotest part of Spain and there was not a great tradition here, so opposition was very small and unpopular. It’s a 1991 generic law for the protection of domestic animals, initially meant to stop dog fights and such barbaric things, but since bulls are not generally found here running free in the wilderness, some smart heads pronounced the bull a domestic animal, bullfighting illegal and bullfighting arenas be closed.
Macho mentality, yes. It's loathsome. The whole idea that your whole male worth is measured in how many women you've laid, how much booze you can soak up, and who you can beat to the ground, is brain dead. Actually, even the idea that *any* worth at all is contained in those things is brain dead.
"The whole idea that your whole male worth is measured in how many women you've laid, how much booze you can soak up, and who you can beat to the ground, is brain dead."
It's braindead to think that. How far are we removed from man 10, 30, 50,000 years ago? Not very far. It might not make rational sense but it's there.
Hey, I never soak up booze to measure my male worth! I only do it for sheer fun. ;-)
BTW, is measuring the size of one's manliness called "mannitude"?
"Actually, even the idea that *any* worth at all is contained in those things is brain dead." Uhm... unless there is some worth in peeing a brick! (Or vice versa ;-) Which, interestingly, COULD be considered as "male worth". By machoes. But we're running in circles there. Ooh, look, a red rag! How entertaining from the roundabout boredom. CHAAAAAARGE! What fun!
"How far are we removed from man 10, 30, 50,000 years ago? Not very far." Really? On the biological evolution scale, we haven't changed a bit. But one thing has MAJORLY changed, in us, during that time. Culture. It's our own, intrinsic to us, so it's part of what defines us humans. Other species, like chimpanzees or elephants, have an acquired transmission of traditional knowledge too. Never underestimate the power of education.
It's still of the utmost importance to raise a child with dedication and sense. We're SO MUCH more than just our genes. That is, in fact, the core nature of being a human. The FANTASTIC adaptability of our minds. Their incredible capacity for evolving... or for stooping, too.
You take a newborn baby Taliban and have it immediately adopted by proper parents in a civilized place, he'll grow up to be a most normal and proper person, like you and I. (Okay, like you, at least! ;-) Once protected from what is, literally, a propaganda of hatred and savagery. I said "he", because, of course, a Taliban baby GIRL would be raised very differently. No cutlass holding between the teeth training for you, Fatima!
Incidentally, is it any wonder that Spain ALSO has one of the highest known European rates of domestic violence? (About one out of two women get beaten up at home.) Perhaps -just a silly supposition here- machism is a common link between "traditional" bullfighting and traditional "bitch-slapping", as some openly call it... :-(
Education doesn't transform the person you are deep down inside. If you're mean and cruel by nature, you'll always BE mean and cruel. But SO MUCH evil is born from "ordinary ignorance". Therefore education can, indeed, absolutely, be at the root of a far better world, and of far better persons globally. If we dare to learn and change from "the old ways".
You know, when I was a kid, an uncle of mine showed me a "neat trick". If you put a hot coal on the shell of a turtle, suddenly it will change its mind about curling up and not budging. I tried it once. Yep, that was efficient allright. TOO efficient. I very easily saw WHY exactly the poor turtle was walking so fast. I imagined what it had to feel like. So I quickly pushed off the hot coal, then took the turtle, and released it in nature, far from the house and any "fun-starved" fire-mongering humans. Telling you about the later karma of this uncle would probably greatly interest you. But I won't. Let's just say, sometimes Fate probably knows more than we think we do, when it strikes somebody down.
And sometimes, just sometimes, I sense as if caring makes me "karma-invulnerabe". Many times, certain death passed right by me without giving me so much as a scratch. Could well be a Sign?...
On the biological evolution scale, we haven't changed a bit.
Sure we have. Compare us to Cro-Magnon Man (although I think they know longer call him that). We have a smaller skull, smaller brain, less robust bones, probably are less muscular, are on average shorter, and lack the third eyelid he probably had (which they say grants nightvision roughly equivalent to first generation nightvision goggles). Slight changes, but evolutionary adaptations.
But one thing has MAJORLY changed, in us, during that time. Culture.
Not so majorly changed.
We're SO MUCH more than just our genes.
Not really. They determine how we think about everything. What we like and don't like, how we make decisions and why.
Education doesn't transform the person you are deep down inside. If you're mean and cruel by nature, you'll always BE mean and cruel. But SO MUCH evil is born from "ordinary ignorance".
Incidentally, is it any wonder that Spain ALSO has one of the highest known European rates of domestic violence? (About one out of two women get beaten up at home.) Perhaps -just a silly supposition here- machism is a common link between "traditional" bullfighting and traditional "bitch-slapping", as some openly call it... :-(
Is it that bad, one out of two? I mean, I know it’s pretty bad but…
I have another silly supposition: the years of the dictatorship. Men and women were indoctrinated into these particular roles, and women’s was not particularly nice… I don’t care to translate any of those pearls of wisdom our mothers (and fathers) grew up with, but here’s an article about a recent exhibition about it.
"Compare us to Cro-Magnon Man (although I think they know longer call him that)." Right you are about that. From what I heard, nowadays Cro-Magnon is considered as identical to Homo sapiens, and the "distinction" as merely the result of an antiquated prejudice about "primitive cavemen". (From the same period that tought me that "Pygmies and Aboriginals are primitive races, with archaic features"...) This new position being the result of objective studies, the same that proved that Neanderthal was definitly a different species. With irrefutable differences in MORPHOLOGY, not some "artistic" assessments of shifts in human variability. A "Cro-Magnon" properly combed, shaved and dressed walking the streets today would pass totally unnoticed by an experienced anthropologist. Unlike a Neanderthal. These latter only likely to be confused with a modern Homo talibanicus, but the Neanderthal has a markedly bigger brain, with more functional neurons. So it is possible to tell them apart. Also, Neanderthal had a well-documented attitude of social solidarity, with women playing a significant part.
"Culture." Not so majorly changed. Culture is what differenciates you and I (well, YOU mostly ;-) from your great-great-great-grandfather and the way he thought, acted, lived. Nowadays, it's no longer "normal" for a woman to be a mere maid at the service of her husband, or to get beaten up at home. That's the result of an evolution in culture.
Granted, my own many posts on douraks regularly confirm that the change isn't very dramatic, all in all. But hey, indoor plumbing use is ALSO an element of culture. Though this specific one's absent in Mauritania...
"[Our genes] determine how we think about everything." We're going to stay in disagreement about that one. Our genes ARE important, and recently found to apparently play a greater role than believed, but they definitely aren't everything. The role of the parents and Society is still fundamental, even if it's not exclusive. Another very interesting study I read, was about not the respective roles of the two hypotheses on personality, but the incidence of their support among scientists. It seems that in capitalist societies, where social position is often inherited, and among scientists tending to be right-wing, heredity gets the predominant vote. While amidst left-wing people, and in socialist-communist societies, it is typically considered that all men are born equal, and Society shapes them. Veeeerrry intereztink...
Few people accept the rather obvious fact that probably nobody can be all right or all wrong about these theories, and that there's probably a significant deal of BOTH. Well, cold, hard, objective science says that's the case. We're born a certain way, raised a certain way, and both affect who we are. Current estimation: 20% heredity, 20% education, and 60% yet uncertain which. It IS a pity that a lot of those findings came from identical twins being separated at birth and raised in very different places, without knowing about each other for a good part of their lives. But it wasn't done for the research. Just by Society fucking up. So, might as well study the results.
"Is it that bad, one out of two? I mean, I know it’s pretty bad but…" Yes. It IS that bad. Just imagine the same applying to children. Then think of the consequences on Society. And finally, ponder what this says about us, if half the homes in one of the EVOLVED countries (such countries being themselves a minority in the world) barely bother to partially conceal such barbary. And the reason for that "barely bothering", is because so many people consider it as ordinary.
I'll let you imagine how bad it is in Lebanon. Just some figures: Christians are 25% of the population, the rest are muslims with often a traditional upbringing (equivalent to Iran or Saudi Arabia); Christians themselves often have a similar mentality regarding women; and the official law in Lebanon limits the rights of women compared to men. And yet, we remain probably the most "evolved" arabo-muslim country in the world. You can imagine the rest then... I prefer not to tell you some of the things I've witnessed firsthand over here. :-(
"dictatorship. Men and women were indoctrinated into these particular roles" It's not because of the dictatorship itself. Dictatorships Franco style merely encourage the national traditional conception of "social order", because a rigid cast that feels instinctively consensual is a great asset for fascism. Or the Shari'a. Or Chinese Socialism. Well, you get the picture. Dictatorships dread change therefore they maintain archaisms, that's all there is to it.
It's too convenient an excuse to say "dictatorship made me do it". No tyranny could ever force ME to become a savage, period. Even in Nazi Germany, people had choices left. Seen Operation Valkyrie? We can ALWAYS refuse to go with the cesspool's flow. Always.
That's what being a human is all about. The debate about Free Will vs Destiny is far less blurry than heredity vs environment.
Shit! My internet is AGAIN giving me "Network Error (tcp_error)" on half of all my usual sites. I hope they're not experimenting with soon to be implemented censorship. The problem sites seem to be completely at random. Anybody heard of any intercontinental cables encountering problems recently?
the same that proved that Neanderthal was definitly a different species.
No, the jury's still out on that one. They haven't ruled out interbreding between the two. If they were different species, you'd at best have sterile offspring (think of the mule, offspring of a horse and donkey) in which case there could be nothing of the Neandertal handed down through us.
Btw, the differences between the Cro-Magnon and us are enough that they shouldn't be considered identical to modern humans for the reasons that I've already pointed out.
Nowadays, it's no longer "normal" for a woman to be a mere maid at the service of her husband, or to get beaten up at home.
It still seems to be the case that most wives are the slave of their husband. While it's no longer acceptable to beat your wife, it does still seem to be the norm that she be your maid. Not the case for me growing up, but most of the other kids I grew up with this seemed to be how it was. Even if their mothers worked, they were still expected to do all the housework, cook all the meals, etc.
Our genes ARE important, and recently found to apparently play a greater role than believed, but they definitely aren't everything.
It's now pretty clear they are far more important than environment. I could be trained by the very best but I don't have the genes to become the next Gretsky. Similarly, a psychopathic criminal should not be excused from responsibility for his crimes because of his genes, yet those genes formed the foundation for his entire way of thinking. We know that decisions can be affected by emotion, something beyond our control to an extent. Scientists have also been studying how it's possible to predict the strategies people use to make risky decisions, suggesting that to a certain extent we don't, after all, have free will. Another blow to the religious, who these days grasp desperately for any gaps in knowledge to sustain their beliefs. When science fills that gap they must move on.
This is not to say that education and upbringing don't play a role, but it's looking more and more likely that they are minimal compared to genetics. I'll give you an example from Robert D. Hare's book Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of Psychopaths Among Us. Two girls raised exactly the same by loving parents. One was a psycopath and one wasn't. Despite the same upbringing and same education, etc., those things just could not compete with the genetic factor.
20 comments:
Not particularly gruesome. Although I wouldn't wish that on someone, you can't say those guys aren't begging for it. Some commenters have tried to defend the practice as tradition.
The images aren't terribly gruesome. It's a shame an animal like that has to die for the cheap entertainment of humans.
I guess it's good that the matador survived; if he re-enters the bullring in the future, it'll give another bull an opportunity to punch another hole in him.
But isn't it, somehow, just as gruesome to watch a bull being forced into a rigged "fight" with a man and getting slowly, bloodily killed just for "entertainment" purposes?
It's one thing to kill animals in order to feed. We're omnivores, after all. And still, we have very strict rules about the proper, minimally cruel way to kill our food.
But so-called bullfighting? I read very in-depth books about it. Let me sum it up to you, the way it goes:
- The bull is put in an arena. It's GOT to be a bull that's never "fought", otherwise it's deemed dangerous. Because, of course, if it learns how things goes, it might get efficient. Less naive. The man, on the other hand, has trained with a great many calves, then progressively older animals. The man is a veteran of the thing. Whatever the issue of the sporting confrontation, the bull must die afterwards. Can't let a bull live that's had time to think this matter over. No. Witnesses.
- The middle of the arena is considered the Bull's turf. A man should never, ever go on the turf of a live bull. Because on the sides, are plenty of wooden plank barriers for the valliant human veteran to seek shelter behind.
- The Bull is "prepared" for the torero, a.k.a. the matador. "Matador" in Spanish means "the killer", BTW. First, a couple of picadors (spearmen) on armored horses stick their spear in the bull, to wound it and make it bleed. Long spears, allow for maintaining a safe distance. The bull starts bleeding. That's the goal.
- Then come the banderilleros. Three of them (or is it 3 picadores and 2 banderilleros?) each stick a pair pointy sticks in the bull's flesh. These banderilles, again, are designed to stay in place, like harpoons, dangling with every move, and ensuring a nice, continued hemorrhage that will weaken the beast for the brave matador.
- Which will then make a very amusing fool of the bovine by shaking a rag just in front of its face, to get it all running in circles, getting tired more and more, and all the time generously bleeding. A good corrida, hombre, is one where at least half of the bull has turned the color of fresh blood.
- Then, when the bull is about as feisty as a tortured American spy in the hands of the Bora-Bora Talibans, the matador hides a sword behind his muleta (the rag), and having checked that the bull is almost incapable of moving further and desperate for breath, he gets close, slowly... slowly... and with a gesture honed by lengthy practice on dozens of animals, he stabs with his sword at precisely the right place and angle to kill the bull.
- Then, if the frail and brave human has indeed not needed the other humans to hurry in mass at his rescue and interfere with the fight because he was about to lose, if the manly latino has proven his virility to the ladies in the audience, he gets to cut off trophies from his opponent. Usually, the tail and both ears. As a souvenir. Or as a present to his sweetheart.
- The bull, I believe, will get eaten. Hope you don't get too much arena sand, or metal bits, in your scallop. Anyway, you know one thing : this was quality meat, you leisurely saw how it moved, and what its juice looked like. Olé.
[Continued on next 4,096 microns salami slice]
You know what? It's interesting, really, how this rather objective and cold description sounds.
To give an honest and complete report, the following details should be noted:
- The brave fighting human often takes on this activity to, as they say in Lebanon, "bury poverty". Usually originating from very poor families, they become national stars, and enjoy wealth, women, etcaetera, you know the drill.
- The human also wears a very pretty costume while he's slowly killing bulls in public. (Slaying kittens would be deemed far less impressive and manly, that's for sure). The bull starts naked, but ends up in a very nice matching shade of red.
- The bull enjoys a rather nice life BEFORE the corrida. It's got to look good, so it's well fed and all. But I expect a life of abstinence in order for sexual frustration to make the "volunteer" more... dynamic.
I think bullfighting is one of the reasons why no eventual extra-terrestrials would want to make contact with our species. Beating one's wife on a daily basis seems like a civilized passtime in comparison.
People in un-urbanized places, like the Amazon forest, hunting to eat, I have no damn right to criticize. But "sportive" hunting, or for that matter any killing of a living sentient being with no need, and even worse for "fun"?
Plain barbaric.
Proponents of bullfighting in southern France love to argument and bleat that it's a tradition. Well, so's wife beating in Saudi Arabia, beheading infidels in Afghanistan, or for that matter, torture in medieval Europe. Thank you so much, Mister conservative Dick Cheney, for keeping our jolly old European traditions alive on the New World. Three cheers for Viceroy Richard ang King George the Second!
Tradition says, Man is the master of all there is, power makes right. Thus spake Allah and the Law of the Jungle Caves. But you'll have to excuse me for now, it's time for the Masked Rapist to make his evening patrol.
Ah, let's not forget my trusty chloroform.
Chloroforming and raping make me feel SO manly.
"Live and let live"? Hah! What BULL!
Pascal - all I can say is, well said!
But isn't it, somehow, just as gruesome to watch a bull being forced into a rigged "fight" with a man and getting slowly, bloodily killed just for "entertainment" purposes?
Yes, it is. The idea is barbaric. Just not particularly hard to look at it. It would be hard to watch a real bullfight, though, at least for me. I guess it's only immoral to have people fight each other to the death.
It's one thing to kill animals in order to feed. We're omnivores, after all.
It does seem possible to exist as herbivores, and be healthy. And after all other primates are, like the gorilla. (I know, we only have a very distant common ancestor.)
Proponents of bullfighting in southern France love to argument and bleat that it's a tradition.
One of the lamest rationalizations going.
I've seen worst. Still a shame. Fortunately bull fighting is illegal in the region of Spain where I live.
"Pascal - all I can say is, well said!"
Well, hey, who doesn't like courting strong women with the aid of chloroform? ;-)
"It does seem possible to exist as herbivores, and be healthy."
Yes and no. I've documented myself on the medical consequences of vegetarianism. It's got inconveniences.
Strict vegetarianism tends to upset our non-herbivore digestive tract, because animal proteins are far easier to digest. (This is why gorillas have such a big belly. It's the natural volume of their vegetarian intestines.)
And veganism, which shuns all foods of animal origins, including eggs and dairy products (why do that, beats me) causes iron and B-group vitamin deficiencies, among other things.
The only objective inconveniences of the omnivorous regime, are the cardiovascular effects of saturated animal fat (avoid fatty red meat then), and the increased colon cancer risk from lack of fibers. So just eat sensibly and in a balanced way, and quit worrying.
Now, the ethical implications of us killing animals to feed, that's another debate.
(I think you mentioned on my blog, JD, that Nature is intrinsically cruel, which contradicts my claim that God created the whole Universe as good. But I still say galaxies are yummy!)
"One of the lamest rationalizations going."
Well, at least they bleat it, they don't moo it!
"Say it, don't spray it."
"I've seen worst."
Let's not start a competition. These lebanese eyes have seen more than they wished to witness.
Besides, I never play the game of "mine is bigger than yours" with women. ;-)
Remember when Arnie said this to Red Sonja about their mutual chests?
Mr Olympia I am not, so I'll leave such bragging to the Groping Governator.
There are places in Spain where bullfighting is illegal? Well, I've learnt something today.
The "tradition" of bullfighting? It's spainful.
There are places in Spain where bullfighting is illegal? Well, I've learnt something today.
The "tradition" of bullfighting? It's spainful.
The tradition is disgusting (mainly the torture of the animals, but also the medieval macho mentality surrounding it), I’ll never defend it, but it runs so deep that I don’t think it’ll ever be ruled out. It’s a taboo in politics. Presidents will dare society (and the Catholic Church) with same-sex marriage, abortion and whatever but, open up a debate about ruling out bullfighting? Nobody will go there.
I believe this is still the only region where bullfighting is ruled out… Probably because this is the remotest part of Spain and there was not a great tradition here, so opposition was very small and unpopular. It’s a 1991 generic law for the protection of domestic animals, initially meant to stop dog fights and such barbaric things, but since bulls are not generally found here running free in the wilderness, some smart heads pronounced the bull a domestic animal, bullfighting illegal and bullfighting arenas be closed.
I’ll admit it makes me feel kinda proud.
Macho mentality, yes. It's loathsome. The whole idea that your whole male worth is measured in how many women you've laid, how much booze you can soak up, and who you can beat to the ground, is brain dead.
Actually, even the idea that *any* worth at all is contained in those things is brain dead.
"The whole idea that your whole male worth is measured in how many women you've laid, how much booze you can soak up, and who you can beat to the ground, is brain dead."
It's braindead to think that. How far are we removed from man 10, 30, 50,000 years ago? Not very far. It might not make rational sense but it's there.
Hey, I never soak up booze to measure my male worth!
I only do it for sheer fun. ;-)
BTW, is measuring the size of one's manliness called "mannitude"?
"Actually, even the idea that *any* worth at all is contained in those things is brain dead."
Uhm... unless there is some worth in peeing a brick! (Or vice versa ;-)
Which, interestingly, COULD be considered as "male worth". By machoes.
But we're running in circles there. Ooh, look, a red rag! How entertaining from the roundabout boredom. CHAAAAAARGE!
What fun!
"How far are we removed from man 10, 30, 50,000 years ago? Not very far."
Really?
On the biological evolution scale, we haven't changed a bit.
But one thing has MAJORLY changed, in us, during that time. Culture. It's our own, intrinsic to us, so it's part of what defines us humans. Other species, like chimpanzees or elephants, have an acquired transmission of traditional knowledge too.
Never underestimate the power of education.
It's still of the utmost importance to raise a child with dedication and sense. We're SO MUCH more than just our genes.
That is, in fact, the core nature of being a human. The FANTASTIC adaptability of our minds. Their incredible capacity for evolving... or for stooping, too.
You take a newborn baby Taliban and have it immediately adopted by proper parents in a civilized place, he'll grow up to be a most normal and proper person, like you and I. (Okay, like you, at least! ;-) Once protected from what is, literally, a propaganda of hatred and savagery.
I said "he", because, of course, a Taliban baby GIRL would be raised very differently. No cutlass holding between the teeth training for you, Fatima!
Incidentally, is it any wonder that Spain ALSO has one of the highest known European rates of domestic violence? (About one out of two women get beaten up at home.)
Perhaps -just a silly supposition here- machism is a common link between "traditional" bullfighting and traditional "bitch-slapping", as some openly call it...
:-(
Education doesn't transform the person you are deep down inside. If you're mean and cruel by nature, you'll always BE mean and cruel. But SO MUCH evil is born from "ordinary ignorance". Therefore education can, indeed, absolutely, be at the root of a far better world, and of far better persons globally. If we dare to learn and change from "the old ways".
You know, when I was a kid, an uncle of mine showed me a "neat trick". If you put a hot coal on the shell of a turtle, suddenly it will change its mind about curling up and not budging.
I tried it once. Yep, that was efficient allright. TOO efficient. I very easily saw WHY exactly the poor turtle was walking so fast. I imagined what it had to feel like. So I quickly pushed off the hot coal, then took the turtle, and released it in nature, far from the house and any "fun-starved" fire-mongering humans.
Telling you about the later karma of this uncle would probably greatly interest you. But I won't. Let's just say, sometimes Fate probably knows more than we think we do, when it strikes somebody down.
And sometimes, just sometimes, I sense as if caring makes me "karma-invulnerabe". Many times, certain death passed right by me without giving me so much as a scratch. Could well be a Sign?...
On the biological evolution scale, we haven't changed a bit.
Sure we have. Compare us to Cro-Magnon Man (although I think they know longer call him that). We have a smaller skull, smaller brain, less robust bones, probably are less muscular, are on average shorter, and lack the third eyelid he probably had (which they say grants nightvision roughly equivalent to first generation nightvision goggles). Slight changes, but evolutionary adaptations.
But one thing has MAJORLY changed, in us, during that time. Culture.
Not so majorly changed.
We're SO MUCH more than just our genes.
Not really. They determine how we think about everything. What we like and don't like, how we make decisions and why.
Education doesn't transform the person you are deep down inside. If you're mean and cruel by nature, you'll always BE mean and cruel. But SO MUCH evil is born from "ordinary ignorance".
That's true enough.
"How far are we removed from man 10, 30, 50,000 years ago? Not very far."
OK, point taken.
Incidentally, is it any wonder that Spain ALSO has one of the highest known European rates of domestic violence? (About one out of two women get beaten up at home.)
Perhaps -just a silly supposition here- machism is a common link between "traditional" bullfighting and traditional "bitch-slapping", as some openly call it...
:-(
Is it that bad, one out of two? I mean, I know it’s pretty bad but…
I have another silly supposition: the years of the dictatorship. Men and women were indoctrinated into these particular roles, and women’s was not particularly nice… I don’t care to translate any of those pearls of wisdom our mothers (and fathers) grew up with, but here’s an article about a recent exhibition about it.
"Compare us to Cro-Magnon Man (although I think they know longer call him that)."
Right you are about that. From what I heard, nowadays Cro-Magnon is considered as identical to Homo sapiens, and the "distinction" as merely the result of an antiquated prejudice about "primitive cavemen". (From the same period that tought me that "Pygmies and Aboriginals are primitive races, with archaic features"...)
This new position being the result of objective studies, the same that proved that Neanderthal was definitly a different species. With irrefutable differences in MORPHOLOGY, not some "artistic" assessments of shifts in human variability.
A "Cro-Magnon" properly combed, shaved and dressed walking the streets today would pass totally unnoticed by an experienced anthropologist. Unlike a Neanderthal.
These latter only likely to be confused with a modern Homo talibanicus, but the Neanderthal has a markedly bigger brain, with more functional neurons. So it is possible to tell them apart. Also, Neanderthal had a well-documented attitude of social solidarity, with women playing a significant part.
"Culture."
Not so majorly changed.
Culture is what differenciates you and I (well, YOU mostly ;-) from your great-great-great-grandfather and the way he thought, acted, lived. Nowadays, it's no longer "normal" for a woman to be a mere maid at the service of her husband, or to get beaten up at home.
That's the result of an evolution in culture.
Granted, my own many posts on douraks regularly confirm that the change isn't very dramatic, all in all.
But hey, indoor plumbing use is ALSO an element of culture.
Though this specific one's absent in Mauritania...
"[Our genes] determine how we think about everything."
We're going to stay in disagreement about that one.
Our genes ARE important, and recently found to apparently play a greater role than believed, but they definitely aren't everything.
The role of the parents and Society is still fundamental, even if it's not exclusive.
Another very interesting study I read, was about not the respective roles of the two hypotheses on personality, but the incidence of their support among scientists.
It seems that in capitalist societies, where social position is often inherited, and among scientists tending to be right-wing, heredity gets the predominant vote. While amidst left-wing people, and in socialist-communist societies, it is typically considered that all men are born equal, and Society shapes them. Veeeerrry intereztink...
Few people accept the rather obvious fact that probably nobody can be all right or all wrong about these theories, and that there's probably a significant deal of BOTH.
Well, cold, hard, objective science says that's the case. We're born a certain way, raised a certain way, and both affect who we are. Current estimation: 20% heredity, 20% education, and 60% yet uncertain which.
It IS a pity that a lot of those findings came from identical twins being separated at birth and raised in very different places, without knowing about each other for a good part of their lives. But it wasn't done for the research. Just by Society fucking up. So, might as well study the results.
[Continued on next space-time quantum slice]
"Is it that bad, one out of two? I mean, I know it’s pretty bad but…"
Yes. It IS that bad.
Just imagine the same applying to children.
Then think of the consequences on Society.
And finally, ponder what this says about us, if half the homes in one of the EVOLVED countries (such countries being themselves a minority in the world) barely bother to partially conceal such barbary. And the reason for that "barely bothering", is because so many people consider it as ordinary.
I'll let you imagine how bad it is in Lebanon. Just some figures: Christians are 25% of the population, the rest are muslims with often a traditional upbringing (equivalent to Iran or Saudi Arabia); Christians themselves often have a similar mentality regarding women; and the official law in Lebanon limits the rights of women compared to men.
And yet, we remain probably the most "evolved" arabo-muslim country in the world. You can imagine the rest then...
I prefer not to tell you some of the things I've witnessed firsthand over here. :-(
"dictatorship. Men and women were indoctrinated into these particular roles"
It's not because of the dictatorship itself. Dictatorships Franco style merely encourage the national traditional conception of "social order", because a rigid cast that feels instinctively consensual is a great asset for fascism. Or the Shari'a. Or Chinese Socialism. Well, you get the picture.
Dictatorships dread change therefore they maintain archaisms, that's all there is to it.
It's too convenient an excuse to say "dictatorship made me do it". No tyranny could ever force ME to become a savage, period.
Even in Nazi Germany, people had choices left. Seen Operation Valkyrie? We can ALWAYS refuse to go with the cesspool's flow.
Always.
That's what being a human is all about.
The debate about Free Will vs Destiny is far less blurry than heredity vs environment.
Shit! My internet is AGAIN giving me "Network Error (tcp_error)" on half of all my usual sites.
I hope they're not experimenting with soon to be implemented censorship. The problem sites seem to be completely at random.
Anybody heard of any intercontinental cables encountering problems recently?
Google
internet health
the same that proved that Neanderthal was definitly a different species.
No, the jury's still out on that one. They haven't ruled out interbreding between the two. If they were different species, you'd at best have sterile offspring (think of the mule, offspring of a horse and donkey) in which case there could be nothing of the Neandertal handed down through us.
Btw, the differences between the Cro-Magnon and us are enough that they shouldn't be considered identical to modern humans for the reasons that I've already pointed out.
Nowadays, it's no longer "normal" for a woman to be a mere maid at the service of her husband, or to get beaten up at home.
It still seems to be the case that most wives are the slave of their husband. While it's no longer acceptable to beat your wife, it does still seem to be the norm that she be your maid. Not the case for me growing up, but most of the other kids I grew up with this seemed to be how it was. Even if their mothers worked, they were still expected to do all the housework, cook all the meals, etc.
Our genes ARE important, and recently found to apparently play a greater role than believed, but they definitely aren't everything.
It's now pretty clear they are far more important than environment. I could be trained by the very best but I don't have the genes to become the next Gretsky. Similarly, a psychopathic criminal should not be excused from responsibility for his crimes because of his genes, yet those genes formed the foundation for his entire way of thinking. We know that decisions can be affected by emotion, something beyond our control to an extent. Scientists have also been studying how it's possible to predict the strategies people use to make risky decisions, suggesting that to a certain extent we don't, after all, have free will. Another blow to the religious, who these days grasp desperately for any gaps in knowledge to sustain their beliefs. When science fills that gap they must move on.
This is not to say that education and upbringing don't play a role, but it's looking more and more likely that they are minimal compared to genetics. I'll give you an example from Robert D. Hare's book Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of Psychopaths Among Us. Two girls raised exactly the same by loving parents. One was a psycopath and one wasn't. Despite the same upbringing and same education, etc., those things just could not compete with the genetic factor.
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