Humans can't think in too positive terms, it's not real for them. So to make a glorious ascension, for instance, seem acceptable, you also stress the painful side of it if you want to talk about such things.
You'll also notice that in every story which has a person who achieves amazing powers and enlightenment (like Phenomenon or Stranger In A Strange Land), that person also has to die. Otherwise the audience rejects the good tidings as being pie in the sky.
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You'll also notice that in every story which has a person who achieves amazing powers and enlightenment (like Phenomenon or Stranger In A Strange Land), that person also has to die. Otherwise the audience rejects the good tidings as being pie in the sky.
It happens in novels as well. Characters become heroes then get murdered by thugs. (Rich Man Poor Man) Irwin Shaw 1970. Classic mini-series.
Suffering itself is in vain. (Lucid said)
Not always Lucid. According to scripture if I suffer for Christ's sake I'll also reign with him.
(If I understand your post clearly.)
"if I suffer for Christ's sake"...
Well, Terry, it seems to me there's no disagreement there. LT said that suffering in itself, i.e. gratuitous, is vain.
Also, he's stating (if I understand him correctly) that suffering is first of all a matter of perception.
I know people who would be quite excused to feel unhappy, but they're not. And others who have very few serious problems, but just love to feel sorry for themselves.
Of course, enduring hardships, whether you focus on them or decide to ignore them, won't change much for Jesus if it was for his sake. Sacrifices for a good cause are always noble.
Well said LT.
I feel what we are most afraid of is not "death" (which will ultimately prove to be a concept) but to find out that our true nature is love. Joining with the other, extending. Sharing. Being with. Smiling. Unending power and simplicity.
why are we so afraid of this?
I ask myself: Why am I?
As soon as I ask this I find myself relaxing, smiling, and making a real connection with someone new (everyone's always new) or with life.
suffering is going away. we don't need to learn from it anymore, unless we want to. Where we find it we can extend forgiveness and love. We can drop our painful reactivity.
But then we might find we come close to a power of intimacy that REALLY frightens us. Who of us will bravely remain awake through THAT intimacy? It takes practice.
Laurie
Yes, I think intimacy has such an effect because it is symbolic (but not actual) of oneness with the Source.
Right. I'm not just talking about sexual intimacy although I never rule that out :)
I mean, intimacy with our self in each moment. So hard to put into words.
I think collectively and individually we're coming close to realizing the Source is US. Not in some guru or idea or special person or thing. When we say "I Am" really quietly, I mean that's where it is. In silence we'll experience this pure freedom most closely.
(Thus a dying man can know peace and a young man can know ruin.)
When they know their end is coming and unavoidable, cats start to purr. Maybe to comfort themselves... and maybe because they understand serenity.
Laurie,
Death may be a concept. But it is also a separation. ("To leave is to die a little", as they say.) I fear not the word, but leaving loved ones for a long time.
Intimacy is daring to open your comforting shell, and invite someone other than you inside. Trust is so scary when you're not ready, when you've spent your whole existence learning to doubt.
We humans are so pathetically afraid of change. We usually prefer the lousy to the unknown.
How naive.
"Cling to life and you are bound to lose it."
I agree with you Lucid. But it's an honor for me to suffer for Jesus Christ (not that I like to feel pain or humiliation.)
I don't wave a flag and say, "Hey Lord, I'm suffering for you." That would all be in vain.
I have an intimate relationship with my Lord Jesus who loved me enough to die on a bloody cross for my sins. I weep as I type these words. (A truth in tears.)
He took my place. He didn't have too, but He suffered and died and rose again because He loved me (us) the world so much.
To serve Jesus is not a needless struggle for me. One day he'll open up his arms in the Northern part of the heavens and embrace me.
I'm not preaching, honestly. But I just want everyone to know that I do NEED MY LORD JESUS in my life.
He is my everything. I am not ashamed of JESUS. He is my God, my love, my personal saviour. I gladly fall to my knees and worship him NOW and FOREVER.
I also understand (to a small degree) on your viewpoints of suffering. Please understand this.
The Lord also said, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
I said all this because I don't want to see anyone perish without knowing Christ as their saviour.
Hell is a reality beyond what we see and know and feel now.
It is a horrible dark place of severe anguish where the fire is not quenched. A person doesn't get a second chance at redemption once he enters this land of midnight misery. It's real my friends. It was orginally created for the Devil and his angels.
(Where weeping and wailing and the worm dieth not.) Seperated from light and love.........and from all your loved ones. Seperated from God throughout the eons............
I wish this upon NO ONE. Please take this seriously. God bless.
Lucid,
I'm just afraid that separation REALLY numbs my awareness. That's my perception.
Wouldn't you be less aware of me if we hadn't met on this blog to share ideas? The theory may be correct, but we still have to make with today's existing applications while we seek for the rest. The global human Gestalt, as in Sturgeon's The Cosmic Rape, is yet to be attained.
I like your definition of intimacy. Distance cannot make true love unfaithful, because somehow the loved one always stays present with us.
Still, I have yet to see an example of falling mutually in love without having met in any manner, physically or through correspondence.
"the first step towards freedom is acting out the concept of heaven on this plane of existence"
Be it on this plane or another, we make our own heaven or hell. By actions, by perception, whatever. They are created and exist within us. We were not sorted out at birth like factory products, we trace our own path in the world, by defining ourselves what and who we are. See my post on "survival humour" for an illustration.
Oh, and we don't joke simply to survive, that would be a little pathetic outside extreme moments. We also do it because it's a pleasure and an attitude. Perception.
"In the end love does not conquer all for all that would be conquered willingly submits itself"
That sounds more like a partnership, a symbiosis, than a submission.
Because there are no losers. :-)
Terry,
If you define Jesus as love and joy, then you and Lucid are just giving different names to the same idea. Different words, same core. :-)
Each finds his own truth, the paths are many and the goal is one.
"I said all this because I don't want to see anyone perish without knowing Christ as their saviour."
Following on what I just said, perhaps the goal will be reached by a path that is just known by another name. If everybody, everywhere on the planet, sets off North, everybody will eventually meet.
I hope this is reassuring, Terry. Good people need only be going in the right direction.
"It is a horrible dark place of severe anguish where the fire is not quenched."
As Einstein said, cold is just the absence of heat, darkness the absence of light, and evil the absence of good. Therefore, one cannot wonder "why did God create Evil?", because it is a pointless conception. (Man didn't create wild Nature, but Nature is where there are no cities of gray concrete. It's a negative definition.)
You guys are in full agreement that turning away from the light is the cause of suffering.
"A person doesn't get a second chance at redemption once he enters this land of midnight misery."
Ah, there I must disagree with you. Redemption might become hard, but it always remains a possibility. There is always room for understanding to finally emerge. And God's compassion is infinite. Meaning, He will forgive anybody... if they take the step to deserve it, of course. (There HAS to be a condition, d'uh!)
Even in the dark void of space, there is no real darkness and void. There is always a residual ambient temperature of 2 to 3 Kelvin degrees. Absolute darkness and cold cannot exist. There is always a spark to be found. There can be light appearing anywhere. It's just more unlikely in some places...
(Who said that science and faith were antagonistic?)
I think if even an angel may fall, even a demon may repent and be forgiven. Even Satan... should he make that choice. It's never too late for God.
And I think it was Saint Augustin who said : "Since Judgement Day hasn't arrived yet, because it is due at the End of Times, then Hell doesn't exist." Therefore, what would appear as Hell is only in truth an immensely vast Purgatory. Immense, but not infinite. By definition. There is no absolute darkness, no absolute despair. Otherwise, God's mercy would no more be infinite.
I'm not 100% sure about this, but I seem to recall reading that the Bible and Gospel never mention Hell in itself, nor eternal damnation, and that it is an invention of the Church. The Qur'an does mention quite often "the Fire", but this only concerns muslims... and centuries after the Church had plenty of opportunity to impose the concept.
"If I fear hell, then I can never rest easily because I can never be 100% percent certain that I won't wind up in some other religion's hell."
Quite amusing! For instance, drinking wine (like, in the sunday Mass), eating pork, eating any meat (hinduism), cutting your hair (sikhism)... We BELIEVE because, as Lucid aptly points out, there is no objective way to KNOW. It's not a mind thing, it's a heart thing.
Einstein was acutely aware of the lots of contradictions and naiveness in the hebraic Bible (as a jew, he read it all), but nevertheless, he believed in God, and not only as another name for "the fundamental nature of the Universe".
Another greatly intelligent scientific mind, Stephen Hawking, seems to be an atheist. He just doesn't see any need for God to explain what we know through science. Logic doesn't lead to either faith nor doubt, this always remains a personal choice.
"All spiritual paths appear to work on some level and that only heightens the confusion."
This logically proves that today's spirituality hasn't yet reached THE Truth in its entirety...
"I did not abandon the faith of my fathers lightly."
As healthily skeptic as I am, I myself didn't abandon it. I just shed the obvious nonsense that cluttered it. Starting with the personal certitudes of clerics who are so insecure within themself, that they feel the vital necessity to have them endorsed by God. Like that condom thing. Or technology for the Amish. And many, many social issues that have nothing in common today with their meaning in a tribal, patriarcal society like the one existing 2000 or 5000 years ago.
Do you know why it is prohibited to smoke during the Ramadan fasting? Muhammad never heard of tobacco, which came from the Americas in the 16th century. Simply, the arabic phrasing for smoking is "to drink smoke". And the Ramadan rules state that drinking is not allowed. (I think not smoking is always a good thing, but this is ridiculous. What about TV and videogames? Etc.)
"If this is your joy, please continue on your chosen path. Each of us must do exactly that."
A most excellent principle. I've often stated the same idea in different words. Lucid, I think you and I should be careful with our safety, considering how many fanatics we're certainly upsetting bu talking sense and respect! ;-)
"(There's Jesus and Buddha... I'm sure there's a few other cases but they aren't documented as well as the first two.)"
Don't forget Tony Robbins and L. Ron Hubbard.
"A person doesn't get a second chance at redemption once he enters this land of midnight misery."
Ah, there I must disagree with you. Redemption might become hard, but it always remains a possibility. There is always room for understanding to finally emerge. And God's compassion is infinite. Meaning, He will forgive anybody... if they take the step to deserve it, of course. (Pascal said)
According to scripture Pascal once a soul departs a body there is no returning. Eternal means forever. (I'm not trying to be arrogant or a know-it-all either my friend. It's what God said.)
I think if even an angel may fall, even a demon may repent and be forgiven. Even Satan... should he make that choice. It's never too late for God.(Pascal said)
God's word says the opposite Pascal. (Revealation 20:10) God came for mankind, not the Angels nor the angels that fell. He came for us only. There is no hope for Satan. The book of revelation explains all this.
If He wanted to forgive, why not simply jump to forgiveness?(Lucid said)
Also read (John 3:16)
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin.
Adam and Eve were created perfect but through their sin everyone born after that tainted by sin.
Only Christ was sinless on this earth.
I'm not 100% sure about this, but I seem to recall reading that the Bible and Gospel never mention Hell in itself, nor eternal damnation, and that it is an invention of the Church.(Pascal said)
Please refer to Matthew 5:22, Luke 16:23, 2 Peter 2:4, Matthew 16:18, Revelation 20:10, Revelation 20:14 and 15, too many to name them all.
The bible is filled with numerous passages about Hell and eternal damnation.
perhaps the goal will be reached by a path that is just known by another name. Pascal said)
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me."
The scriptures also say that Jesus IS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN. (Romans 10:9)
Lucid, I think you and I should be careful with our safety, considering how many fanatics we're certainly upsetting bu talking sense and respect! ;-) (Pascal said)
Gentlemen, I respect both of you, but as a servant of Christ did I point out what his words said. You are both of free will and can make any decision you want. Free will is not an option, it's a given (at least in some countries)
I just wanted to point these things out. It's so important because death is only a breath away.
Thank you for reading my post fellows. God bless.
"death is only a breath away."
My experience has only shown me life as a breath away.
Terry I hear what you're saying. I am also born again.
Laurie
Terry I hear what you're saying. I am also born again.
Laurie
Praise the Lord. I mean this. When I wrote my original article I was hurting for those who did not know Jesus as their Lord.
Sad to say, they don't understand. But I respect them as human beings and friends. I hope one day soon that the Holy Spirit touches their lives and they accept the Lord Jesus as their personnel saviour.
As you know and believe that eternal damnation is real, I felt I needed to warn my friends about dying lost and where they will end up.
I don't want our friendship to end. There are some very gentle and kind souls here who mean well.
Thanks for letting me know that you're born-again Laurie.
That warms my heart.
Lucid, I think you and I should be careful with our safety, considering how many fanatics we're certainly upsetting (Pascal said)
I don't consider myself a fanatic my friend (if you were suggesting I'm one, I don't think you were?)
It's just that I wanted to warn everyone that if they die without Christ as their saviour they will spend eternity in Hell separated from God and their loved ones forever.
I hope you understand? God bless.
Do not be so quick to say we do not understand. In fact, it seems you've ignored certain points so you could re-iterate your own. (Lucid said)
I'm sorry you feel this way. I didn't intentially ignore certain facts (if i did?) I was only trying to reveal what the scriptures said and I couldn't address the entire article word for word. If I accidently overlooked something important you wanted to get across to me than I apologize Lucid.
I just get the feeling that while you speak, no one else is heard. Nothing is addressed, you merely say, "you don't understand" and get back to what you were already saying.(Lucid said)
Again I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I read everything you wrote Lucid. It's your choice and will to smile and walk away. But in my heart at least I know that I gave you the testimony of Christ.
I believe in God and Christ, but in my view the Bible does not do them justice. It is a work full of contradictions. Inspired, perhaps, but inspired insanity. Essential in that it's a stepping stone, not the final answer. (Lucid said)
Your words Lucid are not mine. But you have the right of free will to forsake all that you want and to receive what you feel is inspiration. One day my friend we will all know the absolute truth won't we?
but I say "how is an eternity in hell justified by a finite life of iniquity?" (Lucid said)
and how is an etrnity in heaven worth a finite life of christian living? I do not know. God is a mystery at times, but it's His way. He said it and mean't it.
The church is not filled with happy, living souls that are trying to do some good in the world, it is full of walking dead men seeking to make the world more like they think it should be, because they cannot be happy until that is so. (lucid said)
Walking dead men? I do not understand?
Lucid, I'll close by saying this. I'm sorry if I offended you (not by giving you God's words) but perhaps by not being more receptive to what you had to say.
I never mean't you or Pascal any harm or malice of anykind. The both of you are very talented and gifted people with deep thoughts.
I will agree that we disagree about God's plan of Salvation and leave it to that.
God Bless
LC sez:
"how is an eternity in hell justified by a finite life of iniquity?"
I hear you. But playing the Devil's advocate here (or God's?):
Maybe they just got it a bit wrong? Maybe the punishment is finite. For instance, say you lived one year where you cheated on your wife and on your income tax. Maybe that buys you just one year screaming in agony as you burn in sulfur and intense flames 24 hours a day. And then when your year is up, you have paid your debt and you go to heaven.
Sounds more reasonable? :)
"Don't forget Tony Robbins and L. Ron Hubbard."
L. Ron Hubbard would be more convincing if the movement he founded didn't have such a bad reputation among all those who wanted to leave it. It appears to be more of a money-making machine than a benevolent path to enlightenment. Well, that's the way I see it anyway. Looks like you think otherwise, Eolake. We can't always agree on everything.
Oh, and of course, when I mentioned upsetting fanatics, I didn't mean YOU at all, Terry. There aren't many fanatics who ever said to me : "Pascal, I respect you". I'm not their type. :-)
I pity fanatics for being lost in endless darkness and thinking this immensity is the infinite cosmos. You, Terry, you already know I respect you too. Pity, respect : big difference. It was a joke about the difficulty to be tolerant sometimes in today's world, I don't truly expect fanatics to make a hit list by monitoring this "heathen" blog.
You're very religious, Terry, and you believe that you owe it to us to show us the path without forcing anything on us. Well, that's perfectly okay.
(Hey, if you want your fanatic's degree, you'd better go to school first buddy, 'cause you don't know the first thing about it. Lesson #1 : "You don't advise, you command. If obedience doesn't follow, you strike. Repeat after me, little Osama!")
"According to scripture Pascal once a soul departs a body there is no returning. Eternal means forever."
There you go again, taking the Texts too litterally. If everything in the Scripture was bona fide God's Truth, the Earth would be flat to begin with... To be more precise, you should say "It's what the Gospel said", which is beyond any dispute.
In any case, I never mentioned returning to the body, but redemption of the soul. Why would it be impossible in the Afterlife? What about Purgatory? Or is it all black and white, either Heaven or Hell, with no other option between saints and monsters? There can be no infinite mercy if a steel-hard deadline is set for repenting. And some people die deprived of that chance for various reasons, including human interference...
I still can't take in the notion of a vengeful God, who punishes with some sort of spite rather than a spirit of love and justice. If it's never too late for a human -and therefore imperfect- father to forgive a repenting son (as seen in the Gospel, incidentally), and if we forgive little children because we know their understanding is lesser than ours, how could God be such a "poor" higher example of mercy? There seems to be a conflict between the letter of the scripture and its spirit, no?
Or some might feel I'm driven by a desire to think and understand that is just pride. (I've been told so on occasions.) But I don't feel superior by believing in forgiveness. On the contrary, I feel the only way to deserve forgiveness is by giving it. There's a piece about judgement, as I seem to recall.
Now, for your references. I tend to draw a clear distinction between the words and actions of Jesus (as reported in the four Gospels), and the rest od the Christians' Book. As I recall, St Paul and St Peter had a very bitter argument about the opportunity of keeping the custom of circumcision. However you consider these very special men, they were still men, and if they could harshly disagree about some basic bodily issues, this means they were closer to their own culture than to an eventual One Truth. At least in some aspects.
Basically, I remain very wary of any dogmatism and litteral interpretation in any religion. It should be about the spirit, first and mainly. Not about meat-less fridays, five daily prayers in the direction of Mecca, or what kind of meat it is a sin to eat. Too many gestures, and obsessively focusing on them, will keep you too busy to think about the spirit. For instance, "Love thy neighbour" already exists in the Levitic. Jesus did not invent it, just remind it. "Treat the immigrant in your land as you would your own brother". Is it not more important than not doing any work during the Shabat?
So... (Revealation 20:10) This is St John's retelling. Already, it is relatively canonic, according to my criteriae. Also, there are so many very intensely abstract symbols there, that everything and anything has already been said in interpreting this text. I prefer to remain open-minded about symbols, they're too easy to manipulate. The conquistadores used them to justify the extermination of the Aztecs, for instance. Completely forgetting the loving spirit of christiannism in their greedy/zealot war of conquest.
Provided it IS a prophecy of how the world will end (and this remains to be seen, time will tell), it doesn't mean that Satan CANNOT find redemption, but that he WON'T find it. Many, most evildoers are as stupidly stubborn in their errors. Perhaps it is not a decree, only a prediction. I never said a demon WOULD always repent. "There can be light appearing anywhere. It's just more unlikely in some places." If he won't, doesn't mean he can't. It's just Evil's choice. Just as it was his choice when he was the first of Angels and then fell. This says that angels also have a free will and choice, since they sometimes make mistakes. Human or angel, if you can sin, you can repent. Free will and choice implies the possibility of redemption. So, basically, it's not that there is no hope for Satan, just that "the guy's hopeless". Not by fate : by CHOICE. Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum...
Also, if Revelation tells of what is to come at the end of times, this suggests (re: St Augustin) that indeed an Eternal Hell still doesn't exist, because the dead haven't been judged yet...
(John 3:16) : this does not say that the shedding of blood was obligatory. We received Jesus on this Earth, to deliver us a message of love, and considering the way society worked in these times, it was quite expectable that the clerical Establishment would want his death. Not as a means to bring us redemption, but as a price. You'll mention resurrection to me, I expect. Well, I don't NEED a miraculous resurrection to convince me of the worthiness of the message, it speaks by itself. People who need miracles and prodigies to listen to such a message are to be pitied. Love is its own miracle to he who has eyes to see.
I also simply cannot accept this original sin business. "Innocent as the newborn child", they say. Are you telling me that the instant we are born, we are already guilty of something? How arbitrary and unfair is THAT? Is it in the Gospel, or just another invention of the priests to lead their obedient herd with fear? And what about the communities that did not, that could not hear of Jesus as the only way to salvation? Why weren't we told to bring his word to the people living in the Americas, who made human sacrifices to their idols? How can God justify leaving them in their ignorance and sin from year 33 to 1500? In a simple logic of a God of love, this doesn't make sense. Original sin? The sins of the original father (and originally sin-less) passed on to all the generations to come? That's just a racist principle. Some extremist jews (and christians!) still say today : Ismael's mother was the servant of Isaac's mother, therefore to this day God has made the arabs/muslims servants of the Nation of Israel.
Puh-lease! This is the third millenium! It's way past time we mentally evolved beyond such primitive concepts. What good is that original sin? What purpose does it fulfill? Of what use is it? Answer : to make the baptism, and therefore the first of many ceremonies performed by the priests until our last day, a "moral" necessity. Or to justify that anybody who hasn't yet been "cleansed" of that initial guilt would be inferior to a church-fearing christian. It's artificial.
Just ponder the following : what kind of a loving father would tell his child : "You were wicked ever since the day you were born"? "You were nothing but trouble, just like your great-great-uncle Adam"? Is THIS the spirit of love Jesus taught us? The same guy who forgave the adulterous woman by reminding her would-be executioners that they were all her former clients? (Or something of that sort, I'm getting carried away.)
"Jesus IS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN."
Again, either the path of Love is shown by Jesus, but can also exist identical without bearing the name ("That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell just as sweet."), or this is arbitrarily unfair. To those who didn't hear of him for centuries. And to those who were expected to bow to every whim of the Church or be decreed outside the way of Jesus. This is too dogmatic and rigid for my sense to accept without nuances. It just feels WRONG, y'know? Did Jesus himself say "I am the only way"? Nope. Again one of those apostles that sometimes disagreed together. Right is righ, love is love, whether you name it Jesus, Latihan or Follow-Your-Heart.
Please refer to Matthew 5:22," etc...
Okay, so I was mistaken, Hell IS mentioned, and in the "canonic" four Gospels too. But I see nowhere that it HAS to be eternal. The chasm mentioned in Luke 16:26 can be understood in many ways. Perhaps it is the moral gap that prevents the evil ones from joining the good people if they don't repent. They are images. Jesus didn't rebuild a temple of stone after three days...
2 Peter 2:4 suggests that the fallen angels are yet to be judged too. Which means their eternal guilt and punishment is yet to be pronounced, no? Maybe that Hell condominium is still in the works today.
P.S.: I'm not the guy who'll have churches crumbling by wearing them off too much, I admit. But the principles of love stated by Jesus of Nazareth, inspirator of the religion known today as Christiannism? Dude, the guy rocks! Total respect.
Besides, he was against dogmatism too. "If it's Saturday and your son falls into the well, do you wait until the next day?" Very nicely said! The spirit comes before the narrow rules. I feel we are both on the path North, and heading in the same direction from different starting points. Yours is simply more... "mystic", shall we say? Me, I believe it's more important to help my fellow man (and woman, and child...) that to praise the name of Jesus every sunday. (See Matthew 7:15-23. That's what I believe in.) It's kind of you to worry for me. In fact, it's moving. I just think you're worrying for no reason. :-)
I mentioned this once : I had a religious upbringing, but I didn't assimilate the feeling of praying. Perhaps the damage of too much dogmatism? (There WAS a lot of it!) It can't be changed now. I've tried, many times, and it always felt like I was being hypocrit. If I don't feel the prayer, I'd rather not pray than pretend, 'tis all.
Regarding the many paths, I also believe one needs to have a broad conception. Whatever the religion, you'll find good people and bad people, and average people in-between. I only care that a person is decent to consider them friends. The way they pray? Like the way they dress or do their hair or eat, it's their free choice. Only the results, "the fruits", are really important.
I don't have a Church "business" to run, or an empire to spread. I only have a Humankind to love and help progress. Its many colors (of skin, language, culture, religion) can make a very pretty picture by sheer natural variety. Inside, we're all the same.
On to Lucid's comments.
"I believe in God and Christ, but in my view the Bible does not do them justice. It is a work full of contradictions."
Maybe when I mentioned this Terry wasn't with us yet. The Bible (and the other holy books) were all written by human hands, not fed-exed in hardcover print from the Seventh Cloud. The Muslims believe the Qur'an was sent directly by Allay, but in the fact, Muhammad, who was illiterate, dictated all its text to scribes. After (officially) receiving the whole of its text imprinted in his memory in one go.
People wrote these books. Believing they were driven by divine inspiration. (Or spiritual, for those religions that don't have a God, like Buddhism.) Well, the depth and absoluteness of these scribes' belief and/or faith cannot be an objective proof of God's direct and constant intervention. There's bound to be at least a part of human interpretation and bias. Remember, the story of the world's creation and structure in Genesis is apallingly naive. The Babel tower story is directly taken from babylonian myths, and adapted to a one-god mythology. Etc, etc.
There is a spirit in those books (I'll state reserves for Anton LaVey's "Satanic Bible"!!!). But whether this spirit is inspired by God directly, or indirectly through the good placed in us, or only the reflection of man's conception of God thought to be inspired, is very hard to assess. It's only important, in the end, if you're wondering whether to follow every word of the Clergy, or your heart. Very few Catholics, in Europe, still bother to take notice of the Vatican's radical position against the condom, for instance. It's petty details, not the essential spirit.
"There is always the possibility that we are wrong."
The basis of Cartesianism. Or "how to use your reason correctly". Always be ready to question what you held for a fact. This is how Einstein smashed to pieces the boundaries of newtonian physics. Which were ALMOST right, but not entirely, not always.
"The best we can do is agree to disagree, no?"
A most excellent and very relaxing attitude. But... (gulp!) what if we DON'T disagree? Oh, woe is me!
(Or, in biblical hebrew, "Oy, vey iz mihr!")
NOW, we'd have a serious problem! :o)
"I know greater peace now than I ever did then."
Identifying dogmatism and walking away from it will have that effect on a person...
I know people who became atheists simply because, rejecting the Clergy, they needed to reject all that was related to it. I don't. All criminals are humans, but rejecting crime doesn't mean you have to hate mankind either!
It's such a hassle to spend one's lifetime painting the whole world black and white. Not only are there shades of gray, but there are also all sorts of other colors, too. Have you ever seen a gray rainbow on a B&W TV? I'm old enough to recall these low-tech days. What a waste of the world's beauty! What a way to limit your perception!
"It was only through the guilt and shame I was programmed to administer to myself that they kept hold of me for as long as they did."
Ah-ha! I think Lucid just pinpointed that whole "original sin" issue. How can people who cover up pedophilia and accuse the victims, dare give lessons about guilt?
On the other hand, one person I've known during my childhood was a priest, and he also was a saint. Really. Not by his position. I choose to label him a saint, because of his every day attitude and actions. This man was all good, with incredible gentleness, patience, dedication, compassion and love. And humour! His example convinced me that it wasn't his being a priest that made him a great person, but the power of his heart. Priesthood was simply the way he chose to express it.
One day, he went out of his way to have a collective punishment lifted from our class (for some silly prank). I went to his little private room to thank him. (Note : I wasn't the one who did the prank. For once.) That day, he mentioned the parabole of the ten lepers, because I was the only one in our class who had thought to come. He said he liked my spirit. Well, to see how much this meant to him really moved me.
Father Francis, wherever you are now in Africa, one of your students has only respect for you, and sends you loving thoughts. I hope your heart is in peace.
"I don't think I'll ever return. If I do, it will be to an open minded church"
Lucid, I suggest you read about the Baha'i faith on Wikipedia. You might like their attitude. I do.
The best thing is, to join them you don't need to convert or abandon your "previous" faith, whatever it was. Theirs is a principle of universalism. Now for the funny part : this religion of tolerance was born in... Iran! Honest. Well, they are very harshly persecuted there today, which is no surprise.
"I do believe in hell, but it is one of our own making and we sentence ourselves there."
This is what I meant. It is only as eternal as our own stupidity in remaining in it by refusing to change.
Therefore, it is not God who created evil, and suffering neither. The eternel pain is our own doing. Like the eternal darkness comes from turning away from the light. It is not the light's fault. We're just making a poor use of our freedom.
I read an interesting question arising from that presumed "Gospel of Judas" affair : since the Christ's prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled had Judas not given Jesus away to be crucified, wasn't he a tool in God's plan? And therefore, what was Judas' crime, if he was DESTINED to do what he did?
Well, this is an interesting conundrum, but another one spontaneously came to me. Christian beliefs tell us the following :
-Satan is God's eternal sworn enemy. His former #1 angel (seraphin, more precisely), turned rogue, and bannished to Hell for this.
-Satan is ruler of Hell, a twisted, grotesque version of God ruling the Heavens.
-God's friends go to Heaven, God's enemies go to Hell because it's a very unpleasant place to spend eternity.
-On Judgement Day, Satan will raise his armies to try and conquer Heaven.
Well, since this is all according to God's will, how smart is it, to name your worst enemy warden and master of the place where all your enemies get sent for eternity? Is the eventual coming of a mutiny any surprise? Doesn't take the visions of St John to guess what's gonna happen sooner or later... It's like putting Osama in charge of Guantanamo!
I know, it sounds like impertinent blasphemy. All I meant to say was, some of this stuff really doesn't make sense when you put two and two together. ("A five year-old child could understand this. Somebody fetch me a five year-old child!" -- Groucho Marx) And maybe the answer is, the part that was edicted by the Church over the centuries wasn't all God's directly-inspired perfect Truth...
Fox Mulder would probably back me up.
(Oh, boy! If the Pope ever reads this, my ascension visa delivered by God's embassy is definitely compromised.)
"Looks like you think otherwise, Eolake"
You didn't see the sarcasm of putting Hubbard and Tony Robbins in with Buddha and Christ?
They both have their points, but they hardly are holy.
"You didn't see the sarcasm of putting Hubbard and Tony Robbins in with Buddha and Christ?"
Well, I hadn't goog... I mean, web-searched for Tony Robbins, so I didn't know who that was.
So, now I know you appreciate Hubbard's Sci-Fi books, but you don't look up to him like the Messiah. :-D
"Tony Robbins has massive teeth... Seriously, he could say anything he wanted and I would listen due to being mesmerized by his huge mouth."
Clearly, you have never met my mother-in-law.
(Um... better make this post anonymously.)
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