I did look at the Viewmaster website once. You can rent a steroscopic camera for an unearthly amount, and get a minimum order of 1,000 discs. Ideal for someone with a lot of cash, but not really good for sending out a family Christmas card.
alex said: "You can rent a steroscopic camera for an unearthly amount ..."
For still subjects (such as scenery) you can make do with a monoscopic camera and just move the camera horizontally between two shots. But when photographing people you need to be able to take two simultaneous shots.
Also, there are adapters for tripods in which you can mount two DSLRs. For this to work well the cameras and lenses need to be identical, of course.
There's also something called a "beam splitter", an attachment to a standard camera lens which allows you to take two exposures side by side on the film/sensor. I don't know how well this works.
"... and get a minimum order of 1,000 discs"
Aha! So this is how its done. Interesting. How much for 1,000 disks?
"Hmm, Domai viewmaster disks... ;-)"
I say, go for it, Eo! :-)
Eolake said: "I had no idea somebody still made viewmasters!"
You must be kidding! Its one of the most popular toys of all time. There's a healthy culture around this invention. Many people even collect those viewers (in addition to disks). The old bakellite ones were much better than the current plastic ones.
There are many other types of viewers, too. For example ones where you can just stick two 35mm slides in. Simple and effective.
The nice thing about the Viewmaster, though, is that many people already have one, and those who don't can get one from the nearest Toys'R'Us or similar store.
Here's an interesting site describing someone's experiments with digital stereo photography: http://www.ledametrix.com/
I think I need to buy a second D80 and start experimenting.
"The old bakellite ones were much better than the current plastic ones."
Maybe it was a bakelite one my grandma had. Dark brown thingy. I think it was given to her by my aunt who immigrated to Canada in the fifties. Apart from that one, I have never seen them in Denmark.
Since for some reason they are sold as toys these days, they have to be cheap.
Eolake said: "BTW, couldn't these new video glasses be used as a digital viewer for 3D pics?"
They could, but as far as I know the current models do not allow for projecting separate images to each eye. I may be wrong, though. (I am assuming you mean those glasses that show a virtual screen in the air in front of you.)
But, there is also something called stereo-in-a-window (aka new-style stereo). This requires an advanced graphics card, such as for example NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 (see Apple's product page). You stare at your normal Apple display through what are known as "shutter glasses" (for example ones by REAL D) that sync to the graphics card. This apparently works well.
REAL D also makes lighter shutter glasses (probably based on polarization) for use in theaters. This is now apparently leading a return of 3D to theaters, as reported by CNN (YouTube video). There's also this presentation by its inventor.
NVIDIA has a page describing 3D Stereo from the perspective of their graphics card.
Eolake said: "I had no idea somebody still made viewmasters!"
I've had three or four in my life. Great things. And EO if you EVER PRODUCED a viewmaster reel of DOMAI GIRLS I'D BUY IT! You can't get any reel discs of nude women that I know of? At least not viewmaster. Sucks. The plastic ones sell here for 5 bucks or so. The old ones are better. The bakelight. Please consider it, really. If you want a viewmaster I'll buy you one and send it to you. BTW I love the membership to Domai, totally rocks.
Eo, listen to terry! A set of DOMAI Viewmaster disks really would be a killer product.
Some additions to my earlier postings in this thread:
Shooting stereo using two DSLRs. Mounting the two cameras too far apart will result in "lilliputism". This is particularly notable in human subjects. DOMAI photographer beware! :) The ideal distance is, of course, that of human eyes. The problem is that not all cameras can be mounted so close to each other.
Shutter glasses synced to graphics card. These are said to cause headaches. Probably better to avoid them.
REAL D Cinema This works using circular polarization (clockwise = right, counterclockwise = left). Reportedly the effect is fantastic. Isolation is very good, and you can freely turn your head. 760 theatres in U.S. now use this.
Eolake said: "Surely it has to be linear polarization?"
I was puzzled by this also. The video presentation of the inventor (see above) says nothing about the method. The Wikipedia page only says it uses polarisation.
But this page (see "Head tilt") on the Real D website mentions that it uses circular polarization. I also found one other reference, but this is more reliable since it's their own site.
What's really weird, thought, is how they polarize the light, with what looks like a simple plastic disk in front of the projector's object. It is incomprehensible to me how that can polarise the light going through it in a circular fashion in such a way that every other frame is clockwise and every other counter clockwise.
[Heh... my name above can be viewed as a stereogram now!]
Alex said... "Hmm, Domai viewmaster disks... ;-)"
Please, stop tantalizing us, you're just cruel! :-) I have a whole collection of those discs, just for the pleasure of it. 3-D Domai would be just... like, "I've died and gone to heaven", dude! (Sigh!) Aah, my #1 final fantasy!...
Once you solve the challenge of taking the two stereoscopic images, there are several means to render the 3-D effect.
*Anaglyphs, superimposing a red/green and a blue image and using those well-known colored specs. Nowadays, such images are even in color, by simply playing on the hues. Works quite well, too.
*Another method uses light refraction. The principle is simple : closer things/parts of the image are colored in red. Then orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue, and finally violet/indigo for the furthest details. All on one single image, no double picture-taking needed.Initially, it just appears normally flat with a Warhol-like feel. Then, the viewer uses special, micro-prismatic specs, which are oriented opposite for each eye. Like a classic prism, or a spectroscope, or in the rainbow effect, longer wavelengths are less deviated laterally. As a result, the "further" the colored part, the more both eyes will "see" them so, by spontaneous brain reconstruction of depth perception. I have an old magazine somewhere, which made such volumetric nude photos. Their technique was quite simple : red lighting from the front, green from the sides, blue from behind and the background, and the light wraps and gradually blends along the curves by itself, creating the effect. The micro-prismatic eyeglasses can be practically as cheap as those in red/green and blue. (I got a free pairs with that same magazine.) Interestingly, this color filtering often occurs naturally underwater. With many sub-aquatic pictures that have sufficient depth of field, no editing is needed, simply wear the specs and you'll see the distances in volume. I have verified that the colors need not be monochromatic, human vision adjusts everything even on a common quadrichromic printed page or RGB-based PC monitor.
*Full stereograms. Instead of digitally processing a digitized B&W volume to integrate it in a pattern background, the two images are printed side to side, not exceeding 6½cm in corresponding points distance. They can be viewed with no accessories, after some well-known basic eye training. [BTW, the B&W processing of volumes to make "common" stereograms is identical to the rainbow color principle mentioned just above. Instead of going from brightest=close to darkest=far, you just go from red to blue in the light spectrum.]
*A website which address I've forgotten uses computer capabilities in a very novel, simple and efficient way : animated GIF pictures. The two images are combined in an animation that rapidly shifts them (perhaps 20 times a second). You'd expect the result to give motion sickness, but actually when it's fast enough the eyes and brain process the superimposed alternating angles and reconstitutes the 3-D perception.
Eolake said... "Since for some reason they are sold as toys these days, they have to be cheap."
Correct. If you can just find some on the market where you live. They seem to have gone out of fashion in Lebanon these last years, but I'm sure this popular classic will at worst make regular comebacks. :-) I know lots of adults that still love these toys as well! :-)))
"BTW, couldn't these new video glasses be used as a digital viewer for 3D pics?"
Are you kidding? Nintendo released the Virtual Boy visor-like game console YEARS ago, based on this principle. It was only a market failure for technical reasons : only red & black graphics, and there was some subliminal stroboscopic effect that gave the user headaches. Similar to the shutter glasses effect, but due I believe to alternated refreshing of each screen's image. I'm positively fuming that today's vidgame-makers haven't understood this : modern machines can process 3-D graphics at the very smooth rate of 60 frames/second. Ever since the first PlayStation, it was an obvious idea to be content with a very reasonable 30 fps... each calculated twice from two close angles, and sent separately to the two screens of video glasses! Surely, it can't be bloody complicated to make hardware that sends the two images at the same time, instead of a flickering alternance. Today's machines are obscenely powerful, and instead of revolutionizing gaming with TRUE 3-D, all they give us are finer sound (well, at least Dolby sound is space-located), and *FLAT* 3-D calculated images. Grrr! Viewmaster proved DECADES ago that a less formidable image yielded much more interest and viewing pleasure when you could see it in volume. Who cares about hi-res, if instead I could have the same quality images in VOLUME? At last, jumping in a 3-D platformer would feel natural, and become less infuriatingly hard in the depth-axis direction. The now-forgotten 8-bit Sega Master System #1 (I bought my version#2 back in 1992) had special plug-in goggles (in the card slot, which was removed from #2) that allowed you to play some games in 3-D... all made from 8-bit sprite graphics! And virtual reality specs for PCs have been around like forever (in electronics years). I believe the only real drawback is that modern color video glasses of a satisfactory quality, that would help 3-D graphics spread like wildfire, are still far too damn expensive. Not that the PlayStation3 or X-Box 360 are cheap themselves... It is only a matter of time. But it's wasted time. It could have been done more than 10 years ago. ):-P
TTL said... "What's really weird, though, is how they polarize the light, with what looks like a simple plastic disk in front of the projector's object."
It's not that weird. Polarization of light is accomplished by filters, anyway. It's normal that it'll look like a flat transparent disk. Of course, it's probably not very common in composition and making. :-) The micro-prism specs I mentioned also appear like ordinary clear plastic filters, but place them at arm's length between your eye and a well-lit object and you'll see a rainbow effect on all lateral edges, like light going through a diamond.
"It is incomprehensible to me how that can polarise the light going through it in a circular fashion in such a way that every other frame is clockwise and every other counter clockwise."
I'd guess it might be liquid crystal technology with rapid alternative current/tension. The principle would be very simple. (Practical application, now, that's a whole other enchillada.) Given that some liquid crystals can take a helix-shaped twisted ladder microscopic structure, it could easily explain a circular polarization effect. But then, I'm very ignorant in polarization matters. We skipped that chapter in high school physics class, so I'm self-taught.
I've just remembered all these works-in-progress about designing stereoscopic TV screens and other "volume-rendering" image and movie viewers. Clearly, we're getting there, like with HD-TV, digital, flat and wide screens. But dagnabbit dog'n'rabbit, it could hardly be any slower without going backwards!!!
I'd really appreciate it if I had one of these in my living-room BEFORE I go live on Mars. (Besides, I'd prefer visiting feminine Venus any day!)
A cute nod to viewmasters can be seen in Disney's Lilo & Stitch first movie. Looks like it's advanced extra-terrestrial technology! ;-)
use anabuilder to make anaglyphs or other stereo formats. Use "freeviewing" with two seperate photos.
Get x3d extreme 3d viewing system on ebay for ten bucks and get ready for the U2 video that will be out by Christmas. Stereo is the future - I am a photogrammetrist so it is the bread and butter of my life. "You got two ears, one two, they let you hear, one two, you got two eyes - and they're both the same size!" (actually they are not)
Does anyone know about a Miida SA-1 Universal stereo camera lens? It has two lenses fused with a beamsplitter inside that attaches to any camera lens that is 52mm. I would love to know more about it but can find nothing on the net about it. Thanks
I have a Miida stereo lens I purchased in 1970. I also have the accessories to view slides in a 3D viewer and to project 3D slides to a wall. To view the projected images, you must wear polarized glasses. I experimented with printing photos to view in an antique stereo viewer. Really true stereo on all accounts. I still have the equipment but it has been stored since the 70's. If anyone has an idea how to use it with digital, please let me know. Larry
20 comments:
Wow! This is so 3D it's almost like looking at a stereo image.
BTW, it just occurred to me that there hasn't been any discussion about stereo photography on this forum. I guess no one's interested?
Given that I have to start any discussion, I guess I'm to blame. :)
I think stereo photography suffers from the lack of any good and handy method of viewing.
"Given that I have to start any discussion, I guess I'm to blame. :)"
Ooops! I forgot. :-)
"I think stereo photography suffers from the lack of any good and handy method of viewing."
Well, I think Viewmaster is good and handy. But I have no idea how to produce those discs.
But now in the age of megapickels, what we'd really need is a Digital Viewmaster. (Google gives 25 hits, maybe someone is working on it.)
I did look at the Viewmaster website once. You can rent a steroscopic camera for an unearthly amount, and get a minimum order of 1,000 discs. Ideal for someone with a lot of cash, but not really good for sending out a family Christmas card.
Hmm, Domai viewmaster disks... ;-)
I had no idea somebody still made viewmasters!
When I was a kid in the sixties my gramma had one, and some great wheels, for example a Mighty Mouse story.
alex said: "You can rent a steroscopic camera for an unearthly amount ..."
For still subjects (such as scenery) you can make do with a monoscopic camera and just move the camera horizontally between two shots. But when photographing people you need to be able to take two simultaneous shots.
Also, there are adapters for tripods in which you can mount two DSLRs. For this to work well the cameras and lenses need to be identical, of course.
There's also something called a "beam splitter", an attachment to a standard camera lens which allows you to take two exposures side by side on the film/sensor. I don't know how well this works.
"... and get a minimum order of 1,000 discs"
Aha! So this is how its done. Interesting. How much for 1,000 disks?
"Hmm, Domai viewmaster disks... ;-)"
I say, go for it, Eo! :-)
Eolake said: "I had no idea somebody still made viewmasters!"
You must be kidding! Its one of the most popular toys of all time. There's a healthy culture around this invention. Many people even collect those viewers (in addition to disks). The old bakellite ones were much better than the current plastic ones.
There are many other types of viewers, too. For example ones where you can just stick two 35mm slides in. Simple and effective.
The nice thing about the Viewmaster, though, is that many people already have one, and those who don't can get one from the nearest Toys'R'Us or similar store.
Here's an interesting site describing someone's experiments with digital stereo photography:
http://www.ledametrix.com/
I think I need to buy a second D80 and start experimenting.
"The old bakellite ones were much better than the current plastic ones."
Maybe it was a bakelite one my grandma had. Dark brown thingy.
I think it was given to her by my aunt who immigrated to Canada in the fifties.
Apart from that one, I have never seen them in Denmark.
Since for some reason they are sold as toys these days, they have to be cheap.
Oooh, ooh, WonderFalls!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderfalls
... used the viewmaster.
Great show.
BTW, couldn't these new video glasses be used as a digital viewer for 3D pics?
Eolake said: "BTW, couldn't these new video glasses be used as a digital viewer for 3D pics?"
They could, but as far as I know the current models do not allow for projecting separate images to each eye. I may be wrong, though. (I am assuming you mean those glasses that show a virtual screen in the air in front of you.)
But, there is also something called stereo-in-a-window (aka new-style stereo). This requires an advanced graphics card, such as for example NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 (see Apple's product page). You stare at your normal Apple display through what are known as "shutter glasses" (for example ones by REAL D) that sync to the graphics card. This apparently works well.
REAL D also makes lighter shutter glasses (probably based on polarization) for use in theaters. This is now apparently leading a return of 3D to theaters, as reported by CNN (YouTube video). There's also this presentation by its inventor.
NVIDIA has a page describing 3D Stereo from the perspective of their graphics card.
Eolake said: "I had no idea somebody still made viewmasters!"
I've had three or four in my life. Great things. And EO if you EVER PRODUCED a viewmaster reel of DOMAI GIRLS I'D BUY IT! You can't get any reel discs of nude women that I know of? At least not viewmaster. Sucks.
The plastic ones sell here for 5 bucks or so. The old ones are better. The bakelight.
Please consider it, really. If you want a viewmaster I'll buy you one and send it to you. BTW I love the membership to Domai, totally rocks.
Eo, listen to terry! A set of DOMAI Viewmaster disks really would be a killer product.
Some additions to my earlier postings in this thread:
Shooting stereo using two DSLRs. Mounting the two cameras too far apart will result in "lilliputism". This is particularly notable in human subjects. DOMAI photographer beware! :) The ideal distance is, of course, that of human eyes. The problem is that not all cameras can be mounted so close to each other.
Shutter glasses synced to graphics card. These are said to cause headaches. Probably better to avoid them.
REAL D Cinema This works using circular polarization (clockwise = right, counterclockwise = left). Reportedly the effect is fantastic. Isolation is very good, and you can freely turn your head. 760 theatres in U.S. now use this.
Surely it has to be linear polarization?
Eolake said: "Surely it has to be linear polarization?"
I was puzzled by this also. The video presentation of the inventor (see above) says nothing about the method. The Wikipedia page only says it uses polarisation.
But this page (see "Head tilt") on the Real D website mentions that it uses circular polarization. I also found one other reference, but this is more reliable since it's their own site.
What's really weird, thought, is how they polarize the light, with what looks like a simple plastic disk in front of the projector's object. It is incomprehensible to me how that can polarise the light going through it in a circular fashion in such a way that every other frame is clockwise and every other counter clockwise.
Talk about kewl technology.
[Heh... my name above can be viewed as a stereogram now!]
Alex said...
"Hmm, Domai viewmaster disks... ;-)"
Please, stop tantalizing us, you're just cruel! :-)
I have a whole collection of those discs, just for the pleasure of it. 3-D Domai would be just... like, "I've died and gone to heaven", dude! (Sigh!) Aah, my #1 final fantasy!...
Once you solve the challenge of taking the two stereoscopic images, there are several means to render the 3-D effect.
*Anaglyphs, superimposing a red/green and a blue image and using those well-known colored specs. Nowadays, such images are even in color, by simply playing on the hues. Works quite well, too.
*Another method uses light refraction. The principle is simple : closer things/parts of the image are colored in red. Then orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue, and finally violet/indigo for the furthest details. All on one single image, no double picture-taking needed.Initially, it just appears normally flat with a Warhol-like feel. Then, the viewer uses special, micro-prismatic specs, which are oriented opposite for each eye. Like a classic prism, or a spectroscope, or in the rainbow effect, longer wavelengths are less deviated laterally. As a result, the "further" the colored part, the more both eyes will "see" them so, by spontaneous brain reconstruction of depth perception. I have an old magazine somewhere, which made such volumetric nude photos. Their technique was quite simple : red lighting from the front, green from the sides, blue from behind and the background, and the light wraps and gradually blends along the curves by itself, creating the effect. The micro-prismatic eyeglasses can be practically as cheap as those in red/green and blue. (I got a free pairs with that same magazine.)
Interestingly, this color filtering often occurs naturally underwater. With many sub-aquatic pictures that have sufficient depth of field, no editing is needed, simply wear the specs and you'll see the distances in volume.
I have verified that the colors need not be monochromatic, human vision adjusts everything even on a common quadrichromic printed page or RGB-based PC monitor.
*Full stereograms. Instead of digitally processing a digitized B&W volume to integrate it in a pattern background, the two images are printed side to side, not exceeding 6½cm in corresponding points distance. They can be viewed with no accessories, after some well-known basic eye training. [BTW, the B&W processing of volumes to make "common" stereograms is identical to the rainbow color principle mentioned just above. Instead of going from brightest=close to darkest=far, you just go from red to blue in the light spectrum.]
*A website which address I've forgotten uses computer capabilities in a very novel, simple and efficient way : animated GIF pictures. The two images are combined in an animation that rapidly shifts them (perhaps 20 times a second). You'd expect the result to give motion sickness, but actually when it's fast enough the eyes and brain process the superimposed alternating angles and reconstitutes the 3-D perception.
Eolake said...
"Since for some reason they are sold as toys these days, they have to be cheap."
Correct. If you can just find some on the market where you live. They seem to have gone out of fashion in Lebanon these last years, but I'm sure this popular classic will at worst make regular comebacks. :-)
I know lots of adults that still love these toys as well! :-)))
"BTW, couldn't these new video glasses be used as a digital viewer for 3D pics?"
Are you kidding? Nintendo released the Virtual Boy visor-like game console YEARS ago, based on this principle. It was only a market failure for technical reasons : only red & black graphics, and there was some subliminal stroboscopic effect that gave the user headaches. Similar to the shutter glasses effect, but due I believe to alternated refreshing of each screen's image. I'm positively fuming that today's vidgame-makers haven't understood this : modern machines can process 3-D graphics at the very smooth rate of 60 frames/second. Ever since the first PlayStation, it was an obvious idea to be content with a very reasonable 30 fps... each calculated twice from two close angles, and sent separately to the two screens of video glasses! Surely, it can't be bloody complicated to make hardware that sends the two images at the same time, instead of a flickering alternance. Today's machines are obscenely powerful, and instead of revolutionizing gaming with TRUE 3-D, all they give us are finer sound (well, at least Dolby sound is space-located), and *FLAT* 3-D calculated images. Grrr! Viewmaster proved DECADES ago that a less formidable image yielded much more interest and viewing pleasure when you could see it in volume. Who cares about hi-res, if instead I could have the same quality images in VOLUME? At last, jumping in a 3-D platformer would feel natural, and become less infuriatingly hard in the depth-axis direction.
The now-forgotten 8-bit Sega Master System #1 (I bought my version#2 back in 1992) had special plug-in goggles (in the card slot, which was removed from #2) that allowed you to play some games in 3-D... all made from 8-bit sprite graphics!
And virtual reality specs for PCs have been around like forever (in electronics years). I believe the only real drawback is that modern color video glasses of a satisfactory quality, that would help 3-D graphics spread like wildfire, are still far too damn expensive. Not that the PlayStation3 or X-Box 360 are cheap themselves...
It is only a matter of time. But it's wasted time. It could have been done more than 10 years ago. ):-P
TTL said...
"What's really weird, though, is how they polarize the light, with what looks like a simple plastic disk in front of the projector's object."
It's not that weird. Polarization of light is accomplished by filters, anyway. It's normal that it'll look like a flat transparent disk. Of course, it's probably not very common in composition and making. :-)
The micro-prism specs I mentioned also appear like ordinary clear plastic filters, but place them at arm's length between your eye and a well-lit object and you'll see a rainbow effect on all lateral edges, like light going through a diamond.
"It is incomprehensible to me how that can polarise the light going through it in a circular fashion in such a way that every other frame is clockwise and every other counter clockwise."
I'd guess it might be liquid crystal technology with rapid alternative current/tension. The principle would be very simple. (Practical application, now, that's a whole other enchillada.)
Given that some liquid crystals can take a helix-shaped twisted ladder microscopic structure, it could easily explain a circular polarization effect. But then, I'm very ignorant in polarization matters. We skipped that chapter in high school physics class, so I'm self-taught.
http://www.customviewmaster.com/
Fisher Prices' official custom reel site. There are other 3rd party reels.
Minimum order 250.
I've just remembered all these works-in-progress about designing stereoscopic TV screens and other "volume-rendering" image and movie viewers.
Clearly, we're getting there, like with HD-TV, digital, flat and wide screens. But dagnabbit dog'n'rabbit, it could hardly be any slower without going backwards!!!
I'd really appreciate it if I had one of these in my living-room BEFORE I go live on Mars.
(Besides, I'd prefer visiting feminine Venus any day!)
A cute nod to viewmasters can be seen in Disney's Lilo & Stitch first movie. Looks like it's advanced extra-terrestrial technology! ;-)
cheap (but good) 3d camera
http://www.berezin.com/shop/113
use anabuilder to make anaglyphs or other stereo formats. Use "freeviewing" with two seperate photos.
Get x3d extreme 3d viewing system on ebay for ten bucks and get ready for the U2 video that will be out by Christmas. Stereo is the future - I am a photogrammetrist so it is the bread and butter of my life. "You got two ears, one two, they let you hear, one two, you got two eyes - and they're both the same size!" (actually they are not)
Does anyone know about a Miida SA-1 Universal stereo camera lens? It has two lenses fused with a beamsplitter inside that attaches to any camera lens that is 52mm. I would love to know more about it but can find nothing on the net about it. Thanks
I only vaguely recall something like it. I'll ask on the blog, keep an eye on it.
I have a Miida stereo lens I purchased in 1970. I also have the accessories to view slides in a 3D viewer and to project 3D slides to a wall. To view the projected images, you must wear polarized glasses. I experimented with printing photos to view in an antique stereo viewer. Really true stereo on all accounts. I still have the equipment but it has been stored since the 70's. If anyone has an idea how to use it with digital, please let me know.
Larry
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