"Perhaps the concern, for some, is based upon fear of the erotic. But let’s remember that modesty is learned in childhood. Likewise, shame of our bodies and discomfort with our desires. Nudity is a natural state; sexuality is a necessary one."
BigLittleWolf (a woman) has written a very insightful article there, I think, and with many excellent examples of nudity in art and photography.
27 comments:
Here's an observation on the notion of nudity. But it comes from an interesting context. So:
I'm a US citizen. But I'm sitting in an Amsterdam cafe (no, not 'coffeeshop' -- which is the name for places that sell marijuana) looking at the women walking by. They're beautiful. Not nude, but mostly amazing. As in Denmark (Eolake's origin, I think?) and in many other Northern European cities, the people in general are physically fit, less interested in material trappings, less made-up or over-dressed, and generally more vibrant and seemingly more involved in an outgoing and vigorous life and lifestyle, than people in the United States. I see these folk and I think, both, "I want to be one of them," and, "I hope they accept me, because it's pretty high standards that they would hold me up to."
I'm not a typical bloated American. I'm not visibly overweight, I've been here long enough (and often enough) that I'm wearing clothes that "fit in," I'm even zipping around on an old beater type bicycle like everyone else. I'm not tall and blonde, but what genetic gifts nature did give me, I didn't waste in the "typical American" manner. And here's what I think, about having the opportunity to look at so many beautiful women: and here's what I think, about seeing so many happy people who have long-term relationships, who raise children that will probably be informed, competent world citizens, who have the opportunity to ride grandpa's canal boat down the Achterburgwal or the Brouwersgracht and just smile at life in that relaxed European way, and then maybe bring some tulips home to mom for the dinner table:
Please take them away; please, don't make me look any more.
It's torture, really. I don't want to "look but don't touch." I don't want to see what my life could have been nice, except for the fact that my parents did me the disservice of raising me in a backwards, Puritanical culture. I don't want to look at hot women who will never kiss me. I don't want to know that someone else gets to consider the Elftal (the Dutch "selection of eleven," their national soccer team) to be "his own" and I have to look in as an outsider.
What do I have to do, to make one of these beautiful blonde women consider me to be something more, than just another American tourist? The answer is, there's nothing I can do. I'm trapped.
So, when I see nudity in public, on the interet, in art, I first of all WANT to think, "isn't the human body a fascinating thing, and we should all be comfortable with it" and, of course, I can ethically defend that position with logic and reason and my heart. But then I also accidentally think, and the idea comes up over and over in every context, something like, "I'm not allowed. I lose. Through no fault of my own, THEY are the happy beautiful people and I am not."
So do I really want nudity to be more prevalent, and people to be more comfortable with it, than current practices?
And, in the context of the above observation, is it any wonder that the most obese nation on the earth, the most materialistic, the least worldly-aware, is also probably the most anti-nudity?
Just some thoughts. Now, how to get a hot Dutch woman ...
the Matisse, if it didnt say it was a nude it could be someone in overalls with an ice cream cone down their front
There's a 6 part series called "The Art of Nude Modelling" which covers all sorts of stuff to do with nude art and such. I saw only one part and found it interesting. I couldn't find it online and it was only by fluke that I happened to see it on the TV. I did find it in the catalog of Telefilm Canada which indicated it was originally in French and then dubbed in English but they didn't have any info about how to get it or see it. It would be great to find this on YouTube or elsewhere but so far have not found it. Worth a look if the other parts are like the one I saw.
To Final Identity, in Amsterdam -
I wonder how long you have been there - 6 months? 2 years?
As one who has changed cultures and languages on a number of occasions (to France), I know that it is a long time before integration (to the extent it is possible) takes place.
As I get older, my expectations of self as anything in particular are easier to let go; the ability to partake of an inherently more grounded, more natural, and more sexual environment evolves slowly. An environment, I might add, that is not without its problems. They are just different problems from those we've grown up with in the US.
Nonetheless, certain cultures just suit some of us better, in fundamental ways. Our notions of beauty, morality, time, touch. Perhaps it is different for men and women. I can't say. Patience, and a certain letting go of remnants of old selves, have been the answer for me.
Yes, I think that working on the ability to discard beliefs and feelings might be the most important element in development.
The real reason people have a problem with it is because most people have pretty disgusting bodies. Not when they're kids, but later. Particularly a lot of men, who get fatter and hairier as they age. Plus for guys it's probably a fear their wang is not as big as it could be.
That I could understand, but if that were the only reason, Janet Jackson's nipple wouldn't have been a big deal, she is not exactly ugly.
That I could understand, but if that were the only reason, Janet Jackson's nipple wouldn't have been a big deal, she is not exactly ugly.
Ah, but they don't want to encourage nudity because then it might lead to its becoming acceptable. And of course those who are less attractive might resent the good-looking for being able to go naked when they themselves are afraid to.
And then there's also the thing about white people (or at least the middle-class, left-leaning, liberal arts degree earning white people) today that they love to be outraged about things.
and in many other Northern European cities, the people in general are physically fit
Not from what I've seen.
The woman in that image has some odd curves. ;-)
Final,
Instead of complaining, how about meeting one of these women? And perhaps, just perhaps, finding your match?
Chances are, if you sincerely like them, they will like you in return.
You're no Quasimodo, and you're no unsufferable typical american jerk. So just dare to make the first step. Meet one. Talk to her.
Dare the happiness of life, man!
That wonderful kind of family you mention, it could be YOUR family some day.
Overcome your Puritanical upbringing blocks. You're NOT trapped by some sadistic jailer. The only shackles to that happy freedom are in your mind. Grit your teeth and break them.
(P.S.: I didn't mean that the typical American is a jerk. I meant that American jerks are typical.)
"Now, how to get a hot Dutch woman..."
Any pointers, Eolake? :-)
Ah. Allice's smile has arrived. Benvenuda in mi casa, señorita Allice.
My internet session for today is over. Back soon to comment on the rest.
Fauvist nude.
Even this drawing from Henry Matisse is inspired by Picasso (or reverse inflenced Picasso !) Matisse is not a French painter at all. The way Matisse paint nudity is not for the nudity but for the power of form and color.
Henri matisse lived in the part of France that always in the centuries was a Flemish country: Kamerijk (now Cambrai). We, Flemings, adorent Matisse as one of our greatest Flemish painters. Only the rest of the world (who not knowed the history of the region of Matisse) are thinking it is a 'French' painter. He is born in Kamerijks-Kasteel (in French now Le Cateau-Cambresis). His best artist-friend was Maurice Vlaeminck, which grandfather was a Fleming too, from Gistel near Bruges. The French king Louis XIV annexed Kamerijk in 1717, but the people stayed Flemish people in tradition and opinion till today. In that Flemish part of France the citys use the Flemish flag with the FLEMISH LION. At the Cummon-house of that city is a Flemish Lion. From 11 april to 14 june was in 'Le Cateau-Cambresis' a great exposition of the great influence of Matisse on the Contemporary Art in USA and France... and the whole world. During the inauguration of that great exhibition in Kamerijks-Kasteel(Le Cateau-Cambresis) the grand-son of Matisse decared me that his grandfather always affirmed that he, Henri Matisse, was aFlemish painter> ! Naturaly, for Matisse, as all the 'Nordiste painters' was inluenced by P.P. Rubens and the great painters of Flanders. This is also the reason why he was (together with Vlaeminck the founder of the movement "fauvisme" who lived also in 'French Flanders' : the wild using of primairy colours. For he usd the colours of the Flemish painters... also as Vincent Van Gogh (who also was a Dutch painter who paint as the Flemish- art-tradition and lived a long time in the subburb of Antwerp. Flemings enjoy the life very much: festivities, eat and drink, nice and expensice clothes, but also hard working and studying science and developping new ideas. Flemish art is very old (scince the 4th century. The most people know this perhaps only as 'Belgian' art, but since the foundation of Belgium in 1830 (by French imperialists who were almost fugitive revolutionaries of the revolution of 1830 in Paris to Brussels who is also a Flemish city ! ) all what was named 'Flemish art' was in one day Belgium art. The majority of Belgium artist to-day are Flemings.
The language of Flanders is not French but Dutch. Dutch (created in 16th cntury by the translation of the bible) is the modern form of Flemish; and this is the oldest language of north-Europe. It was aproximative the same as English and Norway, danmark and Sweden-language. But our language is at first: the image: wall-tapissery, paintings, statues, 3-d, book-illustration and so on.
Matisse never spoke Dutch for the language of Kamerijk (Cambrai now) was French at that time (obliged by the French gouvernment since the annexation by strong lows and punishings).
The familyname of 'Matisse' is a French form derived from Mattijs (what is the Flemish form).
P.S. Today it is the National day of Flanders. Today Flanders is an independant region within the belgian federal system (the other region is Wallonia). Our capital is Brussel. Brussel always was a Flemish city.
Leo Vancraeynest - Lector Art Highschool Gent
excellent material, very good models and excellent production scenarios.
You're no Quasimodo, and you're no unsufferable typical american jerk.
I don't know about the Quasimodo part, but insufferable jerk fits. Check out some past years in this blog. He's also one of those people who likes to blame anyone but himself for how his life's turned out. So, of course, it's their problem not his.
["My Hot Summer European Vacation", now in theaters everywhere above the Bible Belt.]
BLW,
Bienvenue en France. I'm seriously thinking about joining you there.
Integration is, first and foremost, in the mind. If you step off the airplane (or the refugee boat) willing to integrate, and you speak the language, instantly you're halfway there, and you've made the toughest half. The one some people never achieve in a whole lifetime, sometimes not in several generations.
Actually becoming "a child of the country" takes a lot more time, but once you're halfway there, it's all pretty much downhill.
(Well, except for getting to eat haggis, ludifisk or escargots!)
The same can be said about a nudist community/place. If you arrive there with the right mindset, and if you gather the nerve to take off your clothes and step forward among all those naked men and women strangers, you're halfway into your total integration amidst them reverse-puritans. :-)
"Nonetheless, certain cultures just suit some of us better, in fundamental ways."
Yes, that's what I meant. I could not arrive in Afghanistan or Pakistan, and be ready to integrate myself to a prehistoric phallocracy that burqafies women and throws acid in their face if they try to get a basic education. Some fundamental ways really don't suit me. ):-P
Now, Final Identity in Denmark, I'd say there's hope. ;-)
[4,096 bytes is more generous than Twitter, but still feels cheap to me. NEXT!]
[Erotic Movie 2, the banned parodic sequel]
Anon appraised...
"it is because most people have pretty disgusting bodies."
As I mention in the "Gayness" thread, disgust is a relative thing.
To some, male genitals in their natural state and moving around are supremely disgusting. Same for pubic or armpit hair. Or for dark/yellow/red skin, as I sadly heard quite often around me.
Recent quote of the day re-run on Domai: "When the human body is in its God created state, it is labelled by many today as unfit to be seen. The question therefore must be asked, 'how can we malign something so highly regarded by the Creator Himself without maligning Him?' " -- John Kundart.
Healthy is beautiful, period. Anything else is part of our acquired and superfluously burdening hangups, of the necessary "patience, and a certain letting go of remnants of old selves" -- (Big Little Wolf, blogger)
Now, unhealthy, the clear signs of body abuse of neglect, of course, they're often objectively ugly. For some reason, I instantly dislike the appearance of people who turn out to be smokers. There are some visible signs of it on the body, which I just "hate". Ditto for the skin of women who have (ab)used make-up for many years, and just gets ruined. Morbid obesity, now there's no question about that one either. Or about anorexia!!!
But here's the thing : the vast range of body types you can see on Domai, and in fact a much wider array than that, are just healthy, and therefore deserve to hear no complaint whatsoever. Some people may be very thin, or plump, tall, or short, etc... and just because they notably diverge from some "canon" (the same which, with the ancient Greeks, would have us idealize vertical noses and tiny spherical breasts) doesn't mean there's anything to criticize about their natural, healthy, normal appearance.
Both my parents are over 60, and far from a DiCaprio or a Drew Barrymore. But they're quite healthy, and look much younger than their age. 10, possibly 20 years younger, if you compare them to some people.
What more to ask for, what's there to criticize? They won't be in some calendar of human beauty, especially commercial calendars of young-and-sexy-beauty, but they have no reason whatsoever to be embarrassed at the way they look at their age, on the contrary. There's little difference between swimsuits and nudity, as far as the body's visible aesthetics go. Well, I'm in no way upset about the way they look at the beach. Nor ashamed to sit with them there.
Because they've taken care of their health, and therefore of the beauty it brings.
Still, Mom's definitely no Ceverina. :-)
But her neck looks much nicer. I think Ceverina has been using a good deal of facial cosmetics. My Mom doesn't.
[Next: "Stop! Or my Mom will powder her nose!", starring Sly-Jester Pascallone]
[This mandatory segmentation is getting tedious, isn't it?]
By the way, what's the friggin' big deal with all those cosmetics? L'Oréal is one of the world's top-grossing companies. And yet, most of what they make and sell for hefty money is little more than pointless pixie dust, "happy thoughts not included".
Some soap, some shampoo, some deodorant and cologne after I've shaved, that's about all the cosmetics I need. I'll concede some basic moisturizing cream for when the weather gets rough on the skin. Essentially, the rest is only good for trying to compensate neglect that a lack of willpower won't cease to cause, and the everlasting ugliness seen in their mirror by those devoid of self-confidence. But it's SO easy to apply a "slimming cream", rather than to start walking regularly and stop stuffing your face with sugary buttery sweets.
):-P
As for the beauty of faces, it first and foremost comes from the soul behind them.
Years ago, I had a professor in vascular pathologies, who was extremely nice and sympathetic. One day, I saw on the TV news a guy elected as the new leader of some local Party, who bore the same name (the leader, not the Party!). Undoubtedly, from their facial features, both men were related. Their features were so much alike, you could have expected them to be brothers. But while the Doctor had a very appealing face, at the very first glance the politician had a repulsive visage. The reason? The face is the mirror of the soul. Whatever the shape of its "architecture", its bay windows display the beauty or the hideousness within.
I've seen many "superb" women whose disdainful pout instantly turned me off, no matter how "va-va-voom" their body also was. And I've met people with very ordinary, sometimes very ungrateful faces, who shone from within with that beauty which irradiates from kindness.
This is why I still don't know what the woman I'll marry will look like. Because my "type", essentially, cannot be described through the features. Oh, sure, I prefer/fancy some rather than others. But it's all secondary to the cardinal importance of the person inside, and the everlasting beauty of that person. I can't help it!!!
Bodies grow old. Souls mature and bonify, like fine wine in a dusty bottle.
Geez, I move myself. ;-)
["And they lived happily ever after and had many romantic sequels"... up next!]
["The Donger of Notre Dame", adult film at 8. Or switch to our competitors for "Hairy Pot-belly and the Polisher's Wand".]
"Plus for guys it's probably a fear their wang is not as big as it could be."
*heh* There too, aesthetics are not just about size. Exactly like with women's breasts. Quite often, the nicest-looking ones are the closest to average size.
I've seen more than my fair share of undressed men, be it on naturist sites or in routine Doctor's work. I'd say it's in great part a matter of harmonious proportions. One might go (in petto, silently) "wow!" at a big one, but it's not "wow, it's superb", just "wow, it's big".
Would you say that Hummers are pretty cars? No. They're just big, and steroid-looking big at that. Big, ugly dumb things fit for egotistic machoes lacking confidence in their intrinsic human qualities.
"Dig mah bling, dawg! Yo-yo-yo, mah jiv'es bigger dan yo's. Pimp mah ryyyde, bee-hatch! Aside, loozah, big load comin' thru, vroom-vroom, boom-box in da phat crib, unh, unh. Dat's what ah'm tokin' 'bout."
Pathetic worship of hollow appearances...
[About that ebonics talk: why would a bee enter the hive through a hatch, that's beyond me!]
"if that were the only reason, Janet Jackson's nipple wouldn't have been a big deal, she is not exactly ugly."
I've seen photos. That wasn't really a pretty nipple/breast.
For one, I found the "jewelry" tasteless, tacky. For two, her breast was awkwardly compressed by that silly "open-thru" leather outfit.
She would probably have looked much prettier au naturel, just going topless with no added metal accessories.
[I couldn't verify that, they removed her buff tanning video from the internet before I could see it.]
Still wasn't anything of a big deal, IMO. I've seen "hotter" and more revealing "socially proper" cleavages, even without counting the "nip-slips".
"And then there's also the thing about white people [...] today that they love to be outraged about things."
I wouldn't mind their freedom to do so, but IN PRIVATE. Just like with homosexual coitus. They don't have to gross us out by flaunting it in public view, and publicizing it on top! (Or on bottom, depends on which position they opt for.)
:-P
My verif on this nudity thread: "skine". I kid you not!!!
[The (temporary) End]
Anonyma annoyedly announced...
"I don't know about the Quasimodo part, but insufferable jerk fits."
Oh? You two have a history together?
What, you had a blind date and he stood you up?
(That's the most likely explanation for assessing he's a jerk but not knowing what he looks like.)
Honestly, Final, really now! Dude, you've GOT to work on your style with the ladies, or you'll die a monk.
At the very least, you could have IM'd her that day to announce that you couldn't make it. Frankly, you're WAY too shy.
Oh? You two have a history together?
Just look back through the archives like I did.
Your relationship has a whole ARCHIVE? Wow. You must know Final Identity pretty intimately.
I can't imagine how it could have not worked...
But really, pallie, you shouldn't keep dwelling on the painful past like that. It won't do you any good. High time to move on, you know what I'm sayin'? Rebuild your love life.
Kraai,
That was interesting and informative, if rather off-topic. There's a very intricated history with art and culture in most of Europe, all the way to Russia sometimes. With royal families marrying between these countries, and importing part of their culture, followers, protégés... as well as with territories/cities bought, attached through marriage, or conquered, the influences have traveled A LOT.
It's true, that much of what is viewed abroad as "French art" is, in fact, more aptly called by the name of the european Schools that created it, like the Fleming School, the Franco-Wallon Movement, the Dutch Impressionists... that just happened to be better known in France because of that country's lasting tradition in harboring and promoting artists.
For example, there is no "French comics" per se, only "Franco-Belgian comics", which include such series, perceived Overseas as "French", as Tintin or Asterix or the Smurfs, etc.
Belgium is a political construction rather than a nation born from one people? So what? How many countries could you name that are NOT in that case? Belgium is, in fact, much less of a mosaic than the UK, the United States, China, Russia, Lebanon, or most countries in the Caucasus. And, relatively, a lot more tense about it.
There comes a time when nations must ask themselves that core question: "Are we ready to let the Past become History, to start building the Future, and to live together? Can we do it?"
The answer to this question, most of the times, is not about whether they can, but whether they WANT to.
Wallons would be happy, in case of a split of Belgium, to join France, and France would be happy to welcome them. But would it really be the best choice? The splitting of Belgium, I mean?
The embarrassment for Europe's emblematic country and capital notwithstanding, it would mean the failure of a common living attempt/experience that lasted for almost 200 years, that's a lot of time! Much longer that the span of all the generations currently alive. Much longer than the past hatred between Germany and France in the Forties. In an age where "we're all becoming Europeans", Belgians are tearing themselves apart about whether they're Fleming Belgians or Wallon Belgians? Grotesque! Let everybody speak both languages, work together with open minds, and let that be the end of it! Enfin, messieurs, je vous en prie, ce spectacle est embarrassant!
This animosity, to me, makes about as much sense as the village blunderbuss vendettas plaguing the remote areas of Corsica, of the Deep American South or the mountains of Lebanon, about a stolen goat, an unauthorized eloping marriage, of a fence between two fields more than 100 years previously.
The more similar people are, the most intensely they'll cantankerously focus on their tiniest differences. Ortodox and Catholics, Catholics and Protestants, Jews and Muslims, Shiites and Sunnis, canadian Anglophones and Francophones... belgian Flemish and Wallons? Puh-leeze! Behave yourselves, you rascally whippersnappers!
Constant strife over pointless detail disagreements, over long-forgotten disputes, over who gets to be "in control of everybody today"... can hold back Humankind's true progress for all eternity, if we allow it. Everybody grabs desperately to their own burden of bitterness, and then nobody swims toward the surface.
That's precisely why those among the shipwrecked who survive are those who strip naked. The others are dragged to the bottom by the weight of their clothes catching water like a reverse parachute. Keep your shoes on if you insist on drowning...
[Heh...] I have a knack for bringing the digressions back to the original topic!
;-)
Your relationship has a whole ARCHIVE?
Give it up, you're not funny.
Well, Geez, Pascal...*someone* doesn't seem to think that you're funny. I was just going to tell you that I think that you're FUNNY (as usual) in places on your posts, here! AND...I agree with what you're saying re: people's mindsets re: integration and body image. LOVED what you said about souls. Nice.
My favorite: "There comes a time when nations must ask themselves that core question: "Are we ready to let the Past become History, to start building the Future, and to live together? Can we do it?""
What a concept, hey?! It SURE WOULD be NICE if EVERYBODY could *play NICELY*...TOGETHER, wouldn't it?! :-)
"*someone* doesn't seem to think that you're funny."
(snaps fingers) Aw, maaaan!
Pesky freedom of opinion!
Note to self: fix @#&%$ glitch in mind control cyber-virus before taking over the world tonight. Right, Pinky? Narf said!
"It SURE WOULD be NICE if EVERYBODY could *play NICELY*..."
"BEHAVE YOURSELVES!" -- (OCP CEO, to Robocop and the giant killer robot slugging it in his tidy conference room.) In Robocop 2, if memory serves me well.
The problem with the upbringing of *NATIONS*, is that they didn't really have *parents*. Raised themselves, like those street boys gathered in a grotto by Peter Pan... :-/
Childishness, indeed.
Communautarian impossibility to live together is like Discworld dragons: it only exists if people believe in it. And the more people see it existing and torching the place apart, the more they foolishly believe in it.
Belgium is still quite fortunate, compared to Lebanon. Nobody (yet) uses political expressions like "Belgianization" (Belgification?) or exclaims in front of a messy teen's bedroom "It's like friggin' Brussels in here!".
Have you noticed how all those untidy mosaic countries have capitals with the same initial? Beirut, Baghdad, Belgrade, Brussels... *SO* weird! ("Not Afghanistan"? Well, try spelling Ka-Boom!)
Insult over injury, now these pesky Iraqi are stealing our spotlight with THEIR own communitarian semi-civil mess. What good is it to us, to be "the SECOND worst"? We don't even have the solace of being really famous no more. ;-P
Now listen here, little girl: the problem with the world today, is that countr... kids have got no respect no more. Blah blah war stories drone drone good old times when we almost starved to death yatta yatta you rascal whippersnappers have it so easy etcætera...
Oops! Sorry, forgot to take my DHEA today. Again.
(scratches head) Now, what was it again I wanted to do before taking over the world? Ah, yes, "fix clothes-disintegrating ray so armies can't know each other by their respective uniforms and coordinate". Brilliant!
Especially with the many co-ed armies there are today. The distracted Americans or Israelis aren't going to be much of a hindrance. }:-)
My, this plan of mine, which I'll call "Operation Strip-Peace", is going to be a real work of art.
THE WHOLE PLANET NAKED, BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!
And united under my benevolent tyranny of Peace, yeah, now there's a creative and unprecedented concept. I should promptly have it trademarked.
Speaking of mentally picturing things, nice photo there, TC.
You're just like I had imagined. ;-)
Got a nude version for this DOMS (Dirty Old Mad Scientist)? If Matisse isn't available to do it, I'll settle for Gauguin.
"It SURE WOULD be NICE if EVERYBODY could *play NICELY*..."
Yes, some people would like a world where everyone thinks the same and no one offends anyone. To anyone with a brain, that would be hell.
Gee, what a revelation! I guess for the last 34 years, the Moujahidine, Syrians, Israelis, etc. were actually PROTECTING me from a hellish life in Lebanon by making sure nobody "played nice".
My, one never ceases to learn! :-0
Anyway, thank Vishnu we don't have to worry about such a Tartarus of consensual Ragnarok on THIS blog, Buddha akbar! You know what, big A.? You're a saint!
Too bad we don't know what day of the calendar to celebrate your selfless abnegation. Durn your legendary modesty (equal only to my own). Ah well, there's always November the 1st. Hope you don't mind sharing with all the other hallows. :-)
Perhaps my weirdest captcha yet: "gracula".
I guess you keep that monster at bay with Darlic!
"Gread the regenge of the Gentriloquist, Gatman! Ge ashraid. Ge jery ashraid."
Gee, what a revelation! I guess for the last 34 years, the Moujahidine, Syrians, Israelis, etc. were actually PROTECTING me from a hellish life in Lebanon by making sure nobody "played nice".
My, one never ceases to learn! :-0
Why is everyone here so brainless? Obviously I am referring to words, not actions. And as everyone should know, words by themselves don't cause anything.
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