How come comics are selling only a tiny percentage of what pure text is? They should be much more popular, given that you have the communication power of text, plus the communication power of images.
I speculate that the issue is that you don't get that power without a proportional increase in complexity, and very few creators (if any) can really harness that. I've been studying comics all my life, thinking about how to make them, and sometimes making them, and I think I've barely scratched the surface. And that's just understanding the principles, not even acquiring the skills necessary to make them!
33 comments:
I think comics, the medium, is much closer to movies than printed prose. In fact, isn't it almost the exact same thing.
Nope. _Understanding Comics_ talked about that.
And Alan Moore made comics which could not be done in any other medium. _Watchmen_ for example, and some various things for ABC comics in the naughties.
Comics are simply not serious matter, kid stuff... [sigh].
Don't I know that look I get when Joe Average catches a glimpse of my collection!
Quote "How come comics are selling only a tiny percentage of what pure text is? They should be much more popular, given that you have the communication power of text, plus the communication power of images."
This seems to be a debate about preferred form of expression. To me it's the content that either shines or glows dimly.
Any valuable concept may be expressed by many art forms through, perhaps, the movie director, comic strip artist, painter, dramatist etc. What's the point of comparing the forms, when for each of us it's the content, "the message", that really matters. Very often this is a personal or subjective viewpoint anyway.
For me it just so happens that I find much more interesting comment in the books I read or the movies I enjoy watching. For another person it will be a different preference of both form and/or content. So be it. I accept that. No questions.
......... forgot to say that sometimes it's great to have visuals given to you. Sometimes just reading text is great because it stimulates the imagination; the greatest tool we have, so I'm told. ~ A ~
Fair enough.
I could rephrase the question: how come more people don't put their content in comic form, when it can be so expressive?
How did I know Bert would be one of those losers with a comic book collection?
In the U.S. it's because comics are still thought of by most people as only for kids. In France you'll see comics published more often in hardcover and it's considered a legitimate art form. Part of the reason for that might be that superhero comics still thrive in the U.S. and have not been as popular in other places.
Thrive is maybe not the word, since from what I've seen the industry is being kept alive by 30-something virgins who live with their parents. That's certainly not all comic book readers, but walk into any comic book store and this seems to be case.
Have you read any American comics lately? Crap. Once in a while you'll get something like Watchmen, but not often.
The subject is simple, not complex, and a book on understanding comics is not necessary.
Kids today don't buy them because of the hefty price tag and the fact that U.S. comics haven't had stand alone stories for a long time. A kid in 1960 could pick up a Superman comic and read it even if he had missed the past six issues.
The illustration quality is also a problem. As Jules Feiffer correctly stated (in 1966) comic book art has been toned down almost antiseptically. Today it's even worse than when he said it because now you've got pages colored and lettered by computer and it looks like the whole thing was made in a bank. Then look at the earliest Superman comics, drawn in Shuster's crude style. Crudely drawn, inked, lettered, and colored. But somehow there's more life and energy.
For every Watchmen that comes along there is Spider-Man 2099.
Take a look at the work of someone like R. Crumb. You may not like his work but there's something there. As Bill Waterson said, you can put all the gut-splattering violence you want into superhero comics but they are in the end still pretty stupid.
It's easy to just say "Joe Average doesn't understand" without bothering to go into detail and tell us what the general public doesn't understand and why they should care.
Some people try that old line about comic books being "modern mythology." Anyone who says that doesn't understand the meaning of the word mythology or the role it has always played in any culture.
My question is not so much "why aren't people buying the comics which are there" as "why aren't there comics which people want to buy?"
Seems to me Superman is mythology.
Josie Troll once again shows how shallow it's mind can be. Too bad it's kind can only be educated with cattle prods. Bah.
I wasn't referring to American rags, which Joe describes very well. The Belgian/French school has produced several gems, like the universally known Astérix, or Achille Talon (a love story with the French language, and a timeless satire of the French bourgeois).
Some of the new school stuff, such as Mourier's works (among which Trolls de Troy, for which Josie might have a special appreciation) are also worth looking at. But alas, I had to shrink my collection of hardcovers from 2K+ titles down to a mere couple hundred for lack of space, so I don't really keep current anymore.
captcha: rabits
My question is not so much "why aren't people buying the comics which are there" as "why aren't there comics which people want to buy?"
At 20$+ a pop, collecting the newest series is no kid stuff. Yet, the amount of work that goes into your average book really does warrant the price tag, especially when printed on decent paper and hard-bound.
But even if you drop the presentation to a bare minimum, like in the American tradition, it still represents a lot of work. Many print authors, once their research is done, can produce a manuscript in a matter of weeks, where the elaboration of a 40~50 page album requires a year or more (referring here to what I know, the hardcover "luxury" edition). I suspect that, for most authors, the payback is simply not enough to warrant the extra work.
Also, aside from newspaper strips, very few authors write and draw comics; therefore producing a book requires the close collaboration of at least two people, and forming a good team is likely to be difficult, at least outside editing giants like Dupuis.
To answer your question, I'd say you probably underestimate the difficulty of the medium...
Oh, and while I'm at it: my BD (comic books is really a misnomer here) collection, even at it's peak, never represented more than a small fraction of my library. As I read at least 1,000 pages per week, I would have been hard-pressed to find enough graphic material to keep me satisfied!
Well, there's a hard-core reader for ya!
I'm impressed you remembered Josie's name. I intended to, but forgot. (Hi Josie. Love to have you here, you're the spice of life.)
Trolls de Troy: Looked them up now, looks great. Sadly does not seem to exist in English.
You're right, even as I know that making comics is an astounding amount of work, I'm probably still underestimating it.
But they still should be placed someplace between text and films in quality, impact, and popularity, and come nowhere close. Superheroes inspire blockbuster movies, but the comics are lucky if they sell in the tens of thousands.
There have been some attempts at translating BDs into other languages, but besides Astérix, Lucky Luke and Les Schtroumpfs (aka The Smurfs), most attempts that I know of have flopped.
Mind you, some of the said attempts were downright ill-conceived, like trying to transform Achille Talon into Walter Melon. A stupid choice if there ever was one, as Talon is as French as can be, and the author's mastery of the language makes it impossible to translate without great loss. Unless attempted by our own Pascal, perhaps? ;-)
As for the "new school" stuff, it probably would lend itself more readily to translation, but as it is mostly published by small outfits, the resources might simply not be available to attempt the venture. After all, the English-speaking world has never truly embraced the BD's "luxury" format, and I just can't picture the authors willingly downgrading the presentation of their art...
You're right about single-authors too. Being exceptionally good at writing *and* drawing is exceedingly rare.
"BD"?
"BD"?
Stands for Bande Dessinée, or "Drawn Strip". BD is the common French denomination for the genre, yet usually has a connotation towards the hardcover editions. When referring to American-style comics, even the French will use the word "Comic", underlining the difference between the genres and the presentation. Just like Manga is widely used to designate the Japanese stuff, if you wish.
So you read French. Cool. What's your heritage?
So you read French. Cool. What's your heritage?
What would you guess? :-)
Belgian? Canadian? :-)
But I'd not gotten the impression you live now in France? Give us the skinny.
Dang, busted. French Canadian, based in Montreal, at your service.
That you are, I like your comments and your selected tips to links.
It's funny how many excellent Canadians I meet, for such a thinly populated country.
That's beacuse excellent we are! [ahem] ;-)
Bert:Les Schtroumpfs
I prefer that to Smurfs and wish they had retained that. It has more zing.
B:Dang, busted. French Canadian, based in Montreal, at your service.
Well, I would have been way off. No further than Eolake, though, who also guessed Belgian.
B:That's beacuse excellent we are! [ahem] ;-)
Well said!
Eolake:Seems to me Superman is mythology.
According to Wikipedia, mythology "refers to a body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture finds meaningful in explaining the nature of reality or mysteries in life." Does a comic book do this? Superhero comics don't have a very widespread appeal and at least in North America have never been taken seriously by the majority of the population.
B:Josie Troll once again shows how shallow it's mind can be. Too bad it's kind can only be educated with cattle prods. Bah.
I hate to say it, but J.T.'s opinion is widely held. A few real life Comic Book Guys have ruined it for the rest of us.
B:I wasn't referring to American rags, which Joe describes very well.
I was actually expecting people to tear me a new one over that.
B:The Belgian/French school has produced several gems, like the universally known Astérix,
I'm a huge Asterix fan (favorite is Asterix in Britain, which has as much to do with the translation as anything else), but I'm not sure I care for the stuff produced since Goscinny's death. The art is still of course great, but the writing isn't that great.
I'm also not a fan of computer coloring/lettering, which they used for the 2004 editions.
It's funny how many excellent Canadians I meet, for such a thinly populated country.
I guess I don't count. I'm an asshole, remember?
Not really that small a population, though. 32 million. It's true those millions are spread over a pretty large area.
Compare to Denmark, or Ireland. But then you look at how many more are packed into England, which would probably fit in Lake Ontario. Okay, maybe not quite.
No, you only act like one sometimes. :-)
"According to Wikipedia, mythology "refers to a body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture finds meaningful in explaining the nature of reality or mysteries in life." Does a comic book do this?"
Does Hercules?
"Superhero comics don't have a very widespread appeal and at least in North America have never been taken seriously by the majority of the population."
But everybody knows Superman. And we don't know how seriously the ancient greeks took Hercules.
Not that I really care deeply if they can be considered mythology or not.
I'm a huge Asterix fan (favorite is Asterix in Britain, which has as much to do with the translation as anything else) [...]
Funny, I just realized, reading your comment, that I have never read an Asterix book in English. Perhaps not that surprising, but still feels odd. I'll have to do that soon...
[...] but I'm not sure I care for the stuff produced since Goscinny's death. The art is still of course great, but the writing isn't that great.
They indeed were a unique team, something that can't be fixed, I'm afraid.
I'm also not a fan of computer coloring/lettering, which they used for the 2004 editions.
Neither am I. Trying to follow the newer publications, I guess. I sorta remember some turmoil over the succession rights when Goscinny passed away (I genuinely hate this kind of crap, so I didn't keep myself informed), which resulted in changing publisher among other things, and that unfortunately was not for the better.
I agree.
Does Hercules?
Not anymore.
"Superhero comics don't have a very widespread appeal and at least in North America have never been taken seriously by the majority of the population."
But everybody knows Superman.
Knowing him isn't enough. I'd bet the percentage of people who know of him is very large, but the number of people who have read a Superman comic is probably pretty low; as is the percentage of people who care. His story has no meaning for most people.
And we don't know how seriously the ancient greeks took Hercules.
You don't make sacrifices to gods or demigods you don't believe in or don't take seriously. Or claim descent from them, as many did - including Alexander.
All I'm saying is that comic books don't count as mythology. Nothing else. And they don't.
Funny, I just realized, reading your comment, that I have never read an Asterix book in English. Perhaps not that surprising, but still feels odd. I'll have to do that soon...
They did a pretty good job. I can't remember the titles now, but some American company did a few new Asterix translations and though accurate they lacked the zing of the Bell and Hockridge translations.
I'd love to be able to read the French originals. Despite the fact that our country is officially bilingual I don't know more than a few words of French.
"All I'm saying is that comic books don't count as mythology."
OK, I'll take your word for it.
Danish Asterix translations were also good, at least judging from the quotations me and my friends still use decades on.
OK, I'll take your word for it.
Probably a good plan.
Danish Asterix translations were also good, at least judging from the quotations me and my friends still use decades on.
Asterix...translated into Danish?! How ridiculous! ;-)
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