It strikes me that when people have enduring disagreements, it often is based in very basic disagreements they are not aware of, sometimes going all the way down to "what is the purpose of life?"
For example, a conservative father may have a violent and continuing argument with his adult son, because the son is a hippie and a slacker, and won't work or even study.
The father takes it as a given that the purpose of life is to become an admired person, have a beautiful home and family, and be secure financially. But the son takes it as a given that the purpose of life is to "find oneself". Or it may simply be to "have a good time today, who cares about tomorrow".
It is essential for our understanding of others that we get an idea of what they want from life. And even more essential for our own life that we define what we want from life.
Tommy said:
WOW, this is a very fascinating conversation, one which I’ve thought a lot about. I haven’t come up with much in the way of answers, but I have thought about it.
I have a son that falls into the category talked about above. I remember driving with him one day and we passed someone driving a very expensive car. In our conversation, he actually said and honestly believed that society owed him something. That person with the fancy car should actually give him some money! The certainly started a conversation, but it also stopped the conversation because we both were talking from two opposite ends of a stick and neither of us would budge. His mother and I most likely gave him too much when he was younger, but even with that in mind, I simply can’t understand how he would feel that way.
I finally gave up and stopped helping him at all (unless it was really serious) and just let him go his own way and kind of hit rock bottom. Interestingly, as an adult he told me a few years ago that, that was the best thing that I had done for him and thanked me.
Another part of this question of what is our purpose resides around why are we here other than to procreate? As an example, I used to pass this house every day driving back and forth to work, for years. Next to the house was a very well tended garden. Obviously it was a work of love for someone that I never knew. One day I went by and noticed that there were weeds growing and that continued for several months. To me it looked like the person must have died. On the earth where that wonderful garden once was, is now a new house. There is no evidence of the love that went into that garden or the person that tended it. I understand that this is the way of life and death, but it still saddens me every time I drive down that road.
-
That father would be right to want his worthless son to work hard not necessarily to become "someone important" but just so he won't be freeloading off society
ReplyDeleteif too many people decided to do that, it would no longer be possible
OK, fair point.
ReplyDeleteLet's say the son won 50M in the lottery.
Freeloading off of society is only possible inasmuch as we allow it to be possible. If families stop putting up with it and government stops giving out welfare the bums will either die or adapt. At this stage things are not in such dire straits so as to make that possible. If we ever face collapse because of an overabundance of lazy people then we deserve it. Not because people were lazy (though it plays a part) but because the rest of us were too stupid to bar them from exploiting the system.
ReplyDeleteThing is, people aren't lazy by nature. Very few people can be satisfied with doing absolutely nothing and those that are can still get jobs at fast food restaurants and supermarkets. (And unless daddy pays for their weed they'll have to get a job eventually. They could become pushers too, but that kind of thing requires more desperation or ambition than the lazy can muster.)
I'm sorry for that little tangent; I have a problem with, "if everybody did it..." arguments because they don't make any sense. If too many people did one thing it would be destructive regardless of what it is. Plus the argument is easily countered by, "everybody isn't doing it, -I'm- doing it" as an individual's actions are rarely significant on a large scale. What's worse is that the people who make the argument are often the enablers of whoever they're trying to lecture, further weakening their point.
Back to the initial post, a lot of problems would be nonexistent if we simply accepted that people have different aims in life. That doesn't mean you enable them, it means you become less obsessed with changing them. The man with the stoner son should toss him out if he's that opposed to his son's lifestyle. And it doesn't matter what you want out of life, learning how to stand on your own feet is a valuable skill so ultimately the son benefits too.
And if the son won 50m? Well, the father can be miserable or he can stop giving a damn. If he felt having children (and having them grow into something he deems respectable) was important to his purpose then he's going to have to challenge his former beliefs. I think that's how you can break the problem down: People want something out of life. Generally it's not very well thought out, it's just a list of shoulds and musts they got through their upbringing or as a reaction to their upbringing. People who don't see things the same way are threatening to them for reasons they don't understand, reasons they don't want to understand, and so they lash out. They place responsibility for their happiness in other's hands and disavow having played a part in their own discontent. Anything to avoid taking an honest look at themselves.
...And even more essential than that, that we leave others free to have their own views about their own destiny!
ReplyDeleteI know what is MY main purpose in life: to decide MYSELF of my purpose, and not let others decide it for me. I'm serious there. You'd be amazed at how complicated that simple notion may make your life.
Trust me, it's such an effort, that I have little time left to wonder what I want myself. But one thing I know I want for sure: to be left in peace. Individual freedom.
Or, in the immortal words of Wino Will, professional vagrant: "Bugger off!"
"If too many people did one thing it would be destructive regardless of what it is."
ReplyDeleteYeah, imagine the nightmare of a world if everybody was a solemn lesson giver!!!
(Actually? Saying this, suddenly it kinda reminds me of my childhood.)
"everybody isn't doing it, -I'm- doing it"
I'll have no insolent back-talking from you, boy! Respect your senile elders, or else!
I'm amazed at people whose main purpose is to impress and dominate others. Get respect and admiration and fear. What a fantastically frustrating life it must be, nobody can *ever* win at it.
ReplyDeleteWOW, this is a very fascinating conversation, one which I’ve thought a lot about. I haven’t come up with much in the way of answers, but I have thought about it.
ReplyDeleteI have a son that falls into the category talked about above. I remember driving with him one day and we passed someone driving a very expensive car. In our conversation, he actually said and honestly believed that society owed him something. That person with the fancy car should actually give him some money! The certainly started a conversation, but it also stopped the conversation because we both were talking from two opposite ends of a stick and neither of us would budge. His mother and I most likely gave him too much when he was younger, but even with that in mind, I simply can’t understand how he would feel that way.
I finally gave up and stopped helping him at all (unless it was really serious) and just let him go his own way and kind of hit rock bottom. Interestingly, as an adult he told me a few years ago that, that was the best thing that I had done for him and thanked me.
Another part of this question of what is our purpose resides around why are we here other than to procreate? As an example, I used to pass this house every day driving back and forth to work, for years. Next to the house was a very well tended garden. Obviously it was a work of love for someone that I never knew. One day I went by and noticed that there were weeds growing and that continued for several months. To me it looked like the person must have died. On the earth where that wonderful garden once was, is now a new house. There is no evidence of the love that went into that garden or the person that tended it. I understand that this is the way of life and death, but it still saddens me every time I drive down that road.
Thanks for letting me share that.
Things get a little easier, once we understand. There was a 'song' with that content in it a long time ago - listening to it drives the point.
ReplyDeleteIf families stop putting up with it and government stops giving out welfare the bums will either die or adapt.
ReplyDeleteNot likely. Anyway governments have spent a lot of money on the problem only to find that of the relatively small number of people on welfare, few are cheats, and it costs more to find those cheats than the amount they are scamming. Lucky for the rest of society, most of us are either hardwired or conditioned to want to work, or at least to not be a sponge.
Not because people were lazy (though it plays a part) but because the rest of us were too stupid to bar them from exploiting the system.
It's been proven, at great expense, that most people on welfare are not simply lazy. Some are, but they are small percentage.
Thing is, people aren't lazy by nature. Very few people can be satisfied with doing absolutely nothing and those that are can still get jobs at fast food restaurants and supermarkets.
Many people on welfare work to supplement their welfare. The thing about those shit jobs is that it's difficult to live on the income, even if you're single. If you've got kids, especially if you're a single parent, fugedaboudit.
(And unless daddy pays for their weed they'll have to get a job eventually. They could become pushers too, but that kind of thing requires more desperation or ambition than the lazy can muster.)
You should stop getting your information from After School Specials and 1980s Drug-Free America commercials.
I'm sorry for that little tangent; I have a problem with, "if everybody did it..." arguments because they don't make any sense.
Try an experiment. Have your counter-argument make sense first before criticizing.
Tommy,
ReplyDeleteQuite interesting story about your son. Very telling.
---
And yes, it all gets interesting when we try to look beyond mere procreating and making a living.
"I'm amazed at people whose main purpose is to impress and dominate others."
ReplyDeleteMotivation : FEAR.
A strong motivation. Explains their readiness for the huge and relentless efforts involved...
"And yes, it all gets interesting when we try to look beyond mere procreating and making a living."
Many people barely look at the ACT of procreating, and don't even envision the years of education that they'll have to follow with.
This ALSO explains a lot. Many people procreate without thinking about it. While some others, like Tommy, actually put some responsible thinking effort in this whole parenting gig.
Speaking of which, Tommy, looks like you've done a pretty decent job after all, huh? I mean, I personally know people who, hearing that attitude from their son, would say "I have failed as a parent". And yet, looks like he was raised well enough to eventually realize that you had his best interest at heart. As opposed to, say, wanting to shape him into the "ideal person" which a frustrated you dreamt of having become.
The kid is a good person. In the thing that matters most, you HAVE been a good parent.
I don't mind people being very rich, myself. Even their being rich thanks to luck rather than merit, that's okay. The only thing that really, really bothers me is people getting that rich by exploiting others. (For instance, your average Third World politician.)
More than needing to give some of that money to others, such people would deserve to be exploited in turn so they'd know what it feels like to be force-kept at the bottom of the pool.
Alas, these people often WERE exploited before becoming exploiters themselves. Some people are just impervious to learning...
"You can take the jackass to the water, but..."
I'd say this is a textbook example of missing the purpose of life. Failure to learn and to better oneself.
When it all ends, you don't take anything of that wealth or prestige beyond your grave. All you CAN take Beyond, is your self. The deeds, the person... who you became and what you did. To borrow from religious vocabulary, that's the soul.
And the soul of the subject, as well. :-)
"Try an experiment. Have your counter-argument make sense first before criticizing."
ReplyDeleteStill living up to your name, I see. ;)
Learn to spot hyperbole.
Pascal, thank you for those kind words, "Speaking of which, Tommy, looks like you've done a pretty decent job after all, huh?".
ReplyDeleteWhile my son has begun his journey of becoming an adult (he's 36) and is now married, I still feel at times this I have been a bad parent. I guess I watched too much of that old TV show Father Knows Best, where life was perfect and the worst that would happen was Eddie Haskel would get Wally or the Beav into trouble.
And yes, I did (and still do) want more for my son but I soon realized that as long as he's happy, then it's not up to me to decide what he does in his life.
Gee, I just read that back and I'm sure tooting my horn there. Actually, I really do feel bad about my parenting skills and our family relationship, but that's another story entirely. It's not for a blog on Art and Photography..
Still living up to your name, I see. ;)
ReplyDeleteNice try.
Learn to spot hyperbole.
I can spot it, but what you wrote obviously does not qualify. It's nice to know that I can in future ignore all your comments, as you are incapable of a coherent argument, and cannot defend the positions you take. That's good to know. You don't get that time back.
Oops, I suppose I'm just living up to my name again huh? That one never gets old. Stupid people like you really grind my gears.
I guess if the son won 50M he could move far away from his old man and do what he wanted. If we're talking about an Average Joe Twelvepack with no real ability to contribute significantly to society, getting a job when you're a multimillionaire would just deprive some schnook who needs it of that job. Sitting on your ass doing nothing if that's what you really want is only bad if you're a drain on the rest of us.
ReplyDeletePersonally I'd stake out a place on the beach in Maui or something. Or maybe on a cruise ship. They got to some interesting places these days.
Still living up to your name, I see. ;)
Nice try.
Maybe a different name. No one would say to Tommy "Well, Tommy, I see you're still living up to your name." "Er...what?" "Oh, uh, nothing, never mind."
This thread seems to have wandered off the topic and got lost somewhere.
ReplyDeleteBut before it closes forever, I'd just like to say, as a 76-year-old,
that by the time you figure out the purpose of life, it's much too late to do anything about it, usually.
I'd just like to say, as a 76-year-old,
ReplyDeletethat by the time you figure out the purpose of life, it's much too late to do anything about it, usually.
People should stop worrying about the purpose of life and just try to enjoy themselves. We are not even close to even beginning to understand whatever purpose there might be, if there is one. I don't think it matters either way.
"Father Knows Best"? Preachy, shmeachy!
ReplyDeleteBasically, old-fashioned "education values" go like this: I was ordered around by older folks when I was a kid, now it's MY turn to boss the young'uns around, and give them the (Bible-sanctioned) angry eyes whenever they seem to lack faith and bowing toward my infallibility.
Others would call this "the recipe for old fools".
Is it any wonder why Alzheimer's disease is such a recently acknowledged entity? An ages-old taboo had to be lifted!
The good parent is one who always doubts, always reconsiders, reassesses, questions his choices.
To quote a truly wise old person (my dear and very un-bossy granny): "Only imbeciles never change their minds."
And the epitome of arrogance is to even CONSIDER the possibility of such a thing as a geometrically "perfect" education.
The good parent learns from his mistakes. The very bad parent is one who "never makes mistakes". Don't snicker, I've actually met such people, claiming to have such educational infallibility.
I've seen what such "perfect" parents produce. Painfully dysfunctional children, scarred for life.
I've already mentioned this more than once: birds are among the most caring parents that I know of. They tirelessly work to feed and raise their little ones, protect them even at the price of their lives sometimes. And when the chicks grow up, what is the final step of this parental dedication? Teach them to spread their wings and take off to live their life. The gift of freedom.
A good parent teaches his children to teach themselves.
So no, I don't think you're tooting your horn, Tommy. Unless admitting that you're the kind of imperfect parent that makes for the best possible parent does mean that. ;-)
I don't have kids yet. I have my brother's little kids frequently visiting. They of course worship their uncle to bits. And yet, I'm never afraid to say, when it applies, that "I don't know".
It's SO relaxing, so pressure-relieving, to dare be imperfect. To teach the little ones very early on that there's always room for learning more.
[Continued on next 4,096 microns salami slice]
Jimbo suggested...
ReplyDeleteI guess if the son won 50M he could move far away from his old man and do what he wanted."
Well, what if the son doesn't want to just turn his back on his dad? What if the son, like, you know, wants to be accepted for who he is by the square dude he loves? Like, food for thought there.
Whoa, man. That was... profound.
My bad. Won't do it again, yo.
;-)
What so many "traditional" fathers dramatically fail to realize, is that their sons only ask for a chance to still love them. But NOT at the price of their own identity.
Remember the bird parents. Love is preparing for the gift of freedom.
Same goes for marital love. If (s)he's not confused, and you need to ask him/her to stay, then you're clinging to shadows. If there's love, then (s)he wil stay with you by free choice, to build something TOGETHER which is called a couple.
The purpose of life? I'll tell you what it is:
It is to find your purpose in life. It's an initiatory quest, a journey of self-discovery.
Yeah, yeah, I *know* it sounds cliché. But where do you think clichés come from, hunh?
Like the Dickster said. Enjoy it while you can, kiddo, one day you'll be too old.
A man was seeking for the meaning, the purpose of life. He traveled the world. After many years, he heard of an old sage, a wise hermit living atop a high mountain, who was said to know all the answers. He set off, endured lots of hardships, risked his life, challenged wide rivers, climbed the high mountain, and finally, one day, he came in sight of a small shack.
He entered.
"I have come to learn the meaning of life."
The old man sitting in the lotus position inside spoke slowly:
"Life is a big river."
The adventurer got angry: "What? Are you senile, old man? After all I've been through to come here, the only thing you've got for me is some fortune cookie proverb?" [Yes, you've guessed it, the guy's an American.] :-)
The hermit's face, tanned and burnt by decades under the sun, turned white as snow, and he started trembling uncontrollably:
"Why? Do you mean that... life ISN'T a big river?"