I never felt right about it, though, I feel a gun is a very disturbing object. After all, it has but one purpose, to wound or kill another warm-blooded creature.
But then, many good people seem very fond of guns.
There was an interesting line in The West Wing: a conservative woman commented to a liberal character that the main reason they fought for gun laws was that they simply "don't like people who like guns".
For me, that's a bit on the sweeping side. I dunno, what do you think?
Update:
Joe sent:
Doctors vs. Gun Owners
Doctors
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.
Now think about this:
Guns
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.
Statistics courtesy of FBI
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Doctors
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.
Now think about this:
Guns
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.
Statistics courtesy of FBI
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
It's for real. Per the doctors' own statistics, when there is a doctors' strike anywhere in the world, death stats fall. The amazing thing is that there is no uproar over this. Compare it to intense global uproar over a mere 3,000 in WTC. Doctors kill forty times more every year. And that's not the people they couldn't save, that's death by sloppiness and mistakes.
Although there is a modifying perspective on this. Basically, "doctors see and heal a lot more people".
OK. But what about "first, do no harm".
Update:
Dave said:
I've owned guns during my life for two reasons: fantasy fulfillment and fun.
The fantasy fulfillment had to do with imagining myself in the role of a television character. Rat Patrol and The Untouchables were very big, and both those featured Thompson submachine guns. So I filled out the paperwork, paid the $200 fee, and bought a full-auto Thompson. It was a beautiful piece of machinery. I owned it for 8 years, never fired it, and sold it when we moved to a state where full-auto was banned. The itch had been scratched.
As my children became teenagers, I realized that there was a good chance that they would encounter firearms in their lives, and they were not prepared at all to be safe around them. My daughter and son and I enrolled in a Hunter's Ed program, and we all learned what to do when a gun is present:
1. Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
2. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
3. Keep the gun unloaded until ready for use.
As a result of this class, both children wanted to learn how to shoot. So I bought a couple of target .22s and a gun safe, and we all went out to the range. My daughter "bought" the scoped lever-action rifle by successfully shooting it 1500 times, all into paper targets at a supervised range. She has her own gun safe now.
My son saw a Cowboy Action Shooting match, and got very excited when a participant let him shoot a couple of shots from an old-fashioned revolver at a metal target. $3,000 later, we had each been outfitted with full cowboy gear: two 6-shooters, a lever action rifle, a shotgun, and all the leather to hold them. He and I shot weekly and had a good time together, until his interest waned. His interest in gun safety never wavered, and he is now an NRA-certified Range Safety Officer -- with a gun safe of his own.
None of us has ever shot at anything alive. None of us has ever carried a concealed pistol -- the legal consequences of misuse are huge.
update:
Jacques said:
For those of you in previous comments who think that guns are used in self defense very rarely, and do more harm than good, I challange you to visit http://gunfacts.info. You can find a PDF file that has real statistics and facts.
You can 'feel' any way you like, but knowing the facts can only be a good thing.
Example..
Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day.65 Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
“Targeting Guns”, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, 1997
-
I like guns. But humans are unstable and negligent and it's hard to trust them with tools that can cause so much irrepairable damage.
ReplyDeleteEven very smart people make errors, get depressed or get hopping mad.
I don't own any firearms, but I love a good game of paintball or airsoft.
I have noticed that my interest in guns tends to rise when I'm not getting laid often enough. Seriously.
ReplyDeleteMust be a way to compensate. :-)
Criminality is on the rise in my town. I would feel safer owning a gun, but it's quite a hassle to get one overhere and I'm aware of all the risks (see previous comment, also criminals could shoot you with your own gun).
Good point, even if you only consider the number of people who have been shot *accidentally*, the number is staggering.
ReplyDeleteWhen you understand the reason why modern guns were invented in the first place, how can anyone "like" guns?
ReplyDeleteJan,the next time you find your interest in guns rising, let me know and I'll help you compensate :-)
ReplyDeleteI think people who pack guns around tend to feel invincible, and act accordingly. Without a gun, one has to mind one's mouth and one's behavior a lot more, and learn to get along better with others. That's my theory, anyway.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ray, Don't ever flip someone the bird when you're driving in the U S of A.
ReplyDeleteEolake, Your use of the word gun is rather broad. Care to narrow that a bit?
ReplyDeleteAssault weapons bother me and I have no use for them. Sporting arms and precision target pieces, I own and enjoy.
Being from the rural western part of the US, I grew up with guns, of the sporting variety, in the house so it is natural to have them around.
Steve
Ah, now we're entering onto more tricky ground. I guess pretty much any gun that fires metal bullets can kill. But I also guess that the more military it is, and the more brutal killing power it has, the less I care for it.
ReplyDeleteThe "sport" still derives from the main purpose, ... that is to kill.
ReplyDelete@John H, as Eolake noted, they all can kill. Some of my friends have sporting arms with values of well over US $1,000 that have never drawn blood. Used in sporting clays.
ReplyDeleteIt is all about perception.
I fully understand the what. My question is the why.
ReplyDeleteSteve, please don't get me wrong. As long as you understand the 'why ' for you, I'm totally okay with that. Where I have a problem is with those who cite the constitution as their sole justification, without any further depth of self analysis - which I don't think applies to you.
ReplyDelete@ John H, If I correctly understand your question, the why, as I perceive it. A skill test of eye hand coordination using equipment/tools used in competition. Pick your equipment. There is no wrong answer.
ReplyDeleteIt's always funny when people describe guns as tools. Also when they try to justify their liking of them by saying that anything can be used as a weapon. Of course (almost) anything can. The difference is that guns were created for only one purpose. I could kill someone with a paring knife, but that's not its sole purpose.
ReplyDeleteEven those whose guns are only for skeet shooting... If you can't see the massive holes in that argument, well...
Specious argument - it's the non-accidental gun deaths that are the big problem. Number of deliberate doctor deaths is quite small.
ReplyDelete* The accidental doctor deaths happen while the doctor is trying to save your life,
* The accidental gun deaths are when someone hasn't locked their gun up properly or cleans it without checking it ain't loaded.
Hardly a comparison.
You could make the accidental gun deaths zero by not owning them.
I went to see Ted Nugent in concert earlier this month. Good music, but I swear, between every song he'd go on this big rant about how much he loves his guns. Deer hunting this, America that, liberal pussies blah blah blah. Holy hell, just play Cat Scratch Fever already.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that sounds like overdoing it. I think that stuff belongs in interviews.
ReplyDeleteI like guns. A lot. I carry a couple of them with me all the time. I discovered long ago that I have become much more patient and careful of my emotions since I started carrying. Things don't get to me as much anymore (not that I was ever a hothead anyway).
ReplyDeleteBut knowing that, if a life-or-death situation occurred, I would have the right tool (with apologies to the commenter who dislikes that term being used) to at least have a chance of protecting myself and any innocents around makes me less worried about lending help to people I don't know in areas I am not familiar with.
The excuse that guns are "only designed to kill" is only a rationalization. Guns are designed to send a bullet downrange. That can either be used to kill or to save a life. Guns are used more often to save lives than to kill. Often the very sight of a gun will make a bad guy back off without a shot being fired.
Yet, there are still many people who would rather see a woman raped and strangled to death with her own stockings than to see her survive because she was able to either drive away or shoot her attacker.
And I really like pics of girls and guns together. It is sexy to see a woman who isn't afraid of taking responsibility for her own safety.
OK...just for [pathetic] "grins" here is some ASTOUNDING statistics...with BB, pellet, and firearms and...children; and...the statistics, I would like to reiterate, are from a 6-year period in the 90's! I would HATE to see what the numbers look like, now. I'm pretty sure that they're not going down!
ReplyDeleteQuestion: should even ONE child be killed by a firearm?! (and, yes...I realize that that is just the "children" category and that NO ONE should die from a gunshot wound!)
IF there were no weapons, there would be NO DEATHS...by weapons; right?
Now...how about "gang-bangers" and drug dealers/lords: IF they had no weapons to protect their "turf," would not BOTH SIDES of the street, all of a sudden, begin to look pretty similar?! Fricken "DEADLY child's play" is what weapons have brought to law-abiding communities when MANY BORED young people rule the streets "pretending" to be "young adults" but...MANY show that they're not capable of doing *anything* without a weapon in their hand!
Is it helpful for these irresponsible "children" (yes! Many of them are under 18!!) to have weapons in their possession? NO! But...sadly, that is what MANY are fighting for gun rights for: these types of people, NOT the usual "law-abiding" citizens! "Law-abiding" citizens DON'T need to "bear arms" because it just causes problems! Seriously! Sadly, MOST of the problems occur in a weapon-owner's own home when the kids get a hold of them and go out and "experiment" and "impress" their friends w/shit they have NO BUSINESS having their hands on!
Druggies: it's a livelihood; a "possession;" POWER; and an addiction that will be protected...at ALL COSTS!! Is it worth it?! No! As we are, now, seeing, there are MANY being killed to protect the drug lords, etc., at the U.S./Mexican border! How can so many people be getting killed? Because they have weapon power!!!!! They're their own fricken army and everyone let it happen!
Weekend Hunters, poachers, & IDIOTS like Dick Chaney: Yes. There are a few people who go out and bag a deer or elk. But there are also many who conduct illegal activity in this sector as well: they're the poachers. BIG fines; STUPID men: was it worth it?! Probably NOT! Again: you have a dang weapon at your house that your kids can get to. Are you being responsible with them? Are you locking them up? Apparently NOT because...there are almost 5 THOUSAND weapons deaths - again...back in the 90's - alone!!
Again: how many weapons deaths "should" we have in this country? ZIP!! But we DON'T!!
Kent, do you know how many rapes occur between strangers? It's much rarer than you think so your argument for that is BULLSHIT! (sorry but I get pissed off re: how STUPID some gun-wielding people can be!) I think it's a VERY RARE CASE where a weapon "saves a life" as well!
I've owned guns during my life for two reasons: fantasy fulfillment and fun.
ReplyDeleteThe fantasy fulfillment had to do with imagining myself in the role of a television character. Rat Patrol and The Untouchables were very big, and both those featured Thompson submachine guns. So I filled out the paperwork, paid the $200 fee, and bought a full-auto Thompson. It was a beautiful piece of machinery. I owned it for 8 years, never fired it, and sold it when we moved to a state where full-auto was banned. The itch had been scratched.
As my children became teenagers, I realized that there was a good chance that they would encounter firearms in their lives, and they were not prepared at all to be safe around them. My daughter and son and I enrolled in a Hunter's Ed program, and we all learned what to do when a gun is present:
1. Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
2. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
3. Keep the gun unloaded until ready for use.
As a result of this class, both children wanted to learn how to shoot. So I bought a couple of target .22s and a gun safe, and we all went out to the range. My daughter "bought" the scoped lever-action rifle by successfully shooting it 1500 times, all into paper targets at a supervised range. She has her own gun safe now.
My son saw a Cowboy Action Shooting match, and got very excited when a participant let him shoot a couple of shots from an old-fashioned revolver at a metal target. $3,000 later, we had each been outfitted with full cowboy gear: two 6-shooters, a lever action rifle, a shotgun, and all the leather to hold them. He and I shot weekly and had a good time together, until his interest waned. His interest in gun safety never wavered, and he is now an NRA-certified Range Safety Officer -- with a gun safe of his own.
None of us has ever shot at anything alive. None of us has ever carried a concealed pistol -- the legal consequences of misuse are huge.
Why do others carry concealed weapons? Fear. If the US wasn't bombarded with stories of violent crimes against innocents, the paranoia would subside, and less people would feel the need for a gun.
Assault guns? They can make excellent target weapons, and can be accessorized like a Barbie doll. They also fulfill fantasies pretty well. (Heck, I owned a full-auto before semi-auto assault weapons were available.) They give the owner some bit of confidence that they offer protection from home invaders or, paranoically, from government confiscation.
Yes, I believe all guns should be registered, the owners licensed and trained, and the owners held accountable for misuse.
That's my story. I still go out and punch paper occasionally, and enjoy it. Most gun owners are quite nice people, I've found.
Thanks, Dave, enligthtening.
ReplyDeleteMy father was a hunter, though most of what's to hunt in DK is ducks. He also had a rifle, which I tried a couple of times as a teen (I was quite good I think). I don't know how long he had it, I only remember it from a brief period.
We also had an air rifle, pellet gun, which which shot at target with in the basement. (I imagine they're pretty safe unless you hit an eye.)
Oh, how did I forget this dude? Basil Marceaux.com, running for governor of Tennessee. Here's the man we need to listen to.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOlM1pPMNBc
Hmmm, Jes' post did not show up. He linked to this guy here.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. After I listened to the whole thing, I'm not sure if he is for or against gun control.
1. Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
ReplyDelete2. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
3. Keep the gun unloaded until ready for use.
You'd have to be pretty dumb to not already know this, wouldn't you?
But knowing that, if a life-or-death situation occurred, I would have the right tool (with apologies to the commenter who dislikes that term being used) to at least have a chance of protecting myself and any innocents around makes me less worried about lending help to people I don't know in areas I am not familiar with.
This is right up there with the kind of guy who keeps a well stocked bomb shelter in case of a nuclear war, and/or who learns survival skills for that post-apocalyptic world. The chances of needing to defend myself like that are so absurdly remote that it's not worth the bother.
That can either be used to kill or to save a life.
Save a life by killing. (That is a desperate rationalization from someone who already likes guns.) Again, statistically how likely are you to be in a situation where you'll need a gun? Shooting at real people is probably a lot different than shooting at targets. I could probably get to be a good shot on the target range or shooting clay pigeons.
And I really like pics of girls and guns together. It is sexy to see a woman who isn't afraid of taking responsibility for her own safety.
I don't want to live in your world, Kent. Too paranoid. I like being sane.
Again, statistically how likely are you to be in a situation where you'll need a gun?
ReplyDeleteI guess we shouldn't bother with first aid kits or fire extinguishers either. House insurance is also a waste of money, I'm not likely to get robbed am I?
If you don't want a gun for self defense you don't have to have one.
I am an IT geek living in a good area, and I have already had 3 pretty scary situations this year in which I was glad I had mine!
That included being threatened by 3 dogs and a drunk knife wielding lunatic.
Luckily I didn't have to use my firearm, but having it is a lot more practical than shouting "But this attack is statistically improbable, please stop!"
In the past I have also seen my mother attacked in our own drive way and a man try break through my bedroom door with an axe. Am I still paranoid?
I guess I would rather see an attacker hurt than see my family suffer. If that makes me insane, then so be it! If I carry my firearm every day and never use it, that would be great! Like with insurance, I have some peace of mind.
If you don't carry a firearm you are simply outsourcing your safety to those that do.
Thousands of people carry firearms every day without hurting anyone. The fact is that firearms are used to defend lives far more than they are used to take them. Most of the time they are used in a defensive capacity without a single shot being fired.p
Jacques, I can see that viewpoint too.
ReplyDeleteWhere you live has a big influence on what this means to you.
You say you live in a Good Area? To me it sounds pretty rough. I have never been attacked in my life.
Eolake,
ReplyDeleteI have always lived in high income areas, where most people don't worry all that much about security.
The situation that I mentioned, involving the knife wielding idiot, was in the middle of the day of a very nice tourist friendly town, Knysna. This is what I came back to after a day of shopping with my wife, the guy was standing right next to my car.
Fact of the matter is that we all venture out our homes from time to time. Attacks do not only happen in the home.
If I was anywhere near your area I would invite you to a day at the range. Like anything else, much of the fear of the unknown dissapears very quickly with a bit of education.
Funny thing is my pal who was an anti-gunner was the first guy to ask me if I was carrying one of my guns when we were confronted by a pack of dogs while hiking recently.
Most of the people I have come across that carry firearms are good responsible people. Hollywood and anti-gun fanatics tell us otherwise, and love all the stereotypical red neck gun lover type characters. This is simply not a reflection of the truth.
Since carrying a firearm I am far more careful about avoiding confrontation than in the past. You simply do not want the situation to escalate to the point where action is necessary. Your actions will have to be justified.
With regards to previous comments, I also do not understand people that choose not to carry their guns due to legal "considerations". My family takes priority to my fears of legal action. I will take justifiable action and I will answer for it.
And self defense aside, I enjoy shooting as a sport. I only shoot cardboard targets and I have spent many good afternoons with my friends.
Do you usually carry a gun?
ReplyDelete(Which size?)
Do you conceal it?
Is this illegal in most states?
While I can see the point of that law, I would also feel that a conspicuously carried gun might be a provocation to some.
Do you usually carry a gun?
ReplyDelete(Which size?)
I always carry a Glock 19, it is a sub compact 9mm. I hardly know it is there.
Do you conceal it?
Yes, in my country (South Africa) it is illegal to carry otherwise unless you are police or security and in full uniform. I would choose to carry this way anyway, to avoid confrontation and also to keep the element of surprise in a potential defensive situation.
Is this illegal in most states?
In the US, one state may allow open carry or insist on it, another state may only allow concealed.
I looked up the Glock 19, it only weighs 255 grams with a full magazine, that's quite light.
ReplyDeleteYip, not heavy at all.
ReplyDeleteThe holster I use sits inside the pants. Very comfortable and conceals very well. I can wear it under a tshirt without any "printing". Leather against the body and a kydex (tough plastic) around the gun. Trigger guard is covered.
I don't get, though, why there isn't any effective alternative which disables an attacker without serious injury.
ReplyDeleteEolake,
ReplyDeleteIf there is one I would be the first in line to get one. I'll give a few examples and why I don't use them as a primary method. For the record, I do carry pepper spray for those situations that are not life threatening.
1. Pepper spray - must make close contact with attacker. No use in a very windy environment and not always effective on an attacker who is high on drugs.
2. Stun Guns - Must be used in close physical contact with attacker. Can be ineffective against attacker when intoxicated or on drugs.
3. Pepper guns - to big to carry. Those that are small enough only provide 1 or two shots. If you miss twice you are out of luck.
The worse case scenario for an attack involves an armed attacker. Would you feel confident in any of the alternatives against such an opponent? I personally don't think so.
A firearm is the great equaliser.
An old lady or weak person can have a method of defense equal to the most aggressive attacker. Unfortunately at this time there is no less than lethal alternative that can also claim this to be true.
I would love to be proved wrong, honestly.
For those of you in previous comments who think that guns are used in self defense very rarely, and do more harm than good, I challange you to visit http://gunfacts.info. You can find a PDF file that has real statistics and facts.
ReplyDeleteYou can 'feel' any way you like, but knowing the facts can only be a good thing.
Example..
Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day.65 Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
“Targeting Guns”, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, 1997
Eolake asked Jacques: "Do you usually carry a gun?
ReplyDelete(Which size?)
Do you conceal it?
Is this illegal in most states?
While I can see the point of that law, I would also feel that a conspicuously carried gun might be a provocation to some."
I hope you don't mind, but I'll answer these too, from the perspective of someone living in the US.
I carry a 1911 .45 and a .22 mini revolver.
Yes, I conceal them. Only 2 states in the US forbid this practice to "ordinary citizens", although most require a "permit". In the 48 states where it is allowed, crime has gone down everytime laws concerning the carry of guns has been liberalized.
Three states, Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona have no laws against carrying of guns in any fashion (openly or concealed) and require no permits. This is called "Vermont carry" since this is the state where no permit has ever been required.
"Open carry" is legal in some states and illegal in others. Here is a map to illustrate the confusing situation: Open carry map. I live right on the border between Texas and New Mexico, just a few hundred feet on the Texas side. As you can see they have opposite laws on open carry. If I choose to carry openly I would be breaking the "law" until I got to New Mexico where it would be perfectly legal. When I lived in Colorado I almost always carried openly and it was never an issue or a provocation. The only people who even seemed to notice were travelers from out of town. However, I hear from other places across the US that if you open carry, even where legal, some police are not aware of the law and will attack you if they see you with a gun carried legally in the open.
I guess we shouldn't bother with first aid kits or fire extinguishers either. House insurance is also a waste of money, I'm not likely to get robbed am I?
ReplyDeleteThose are reasonable precautions to take. Not to mention, few people are probably ever killed by them. That's not to say it couldn't happen. Probably a few fire extinguishers have been used as weapons. As for house insurance, that's required by law. Reason is just something completely foreign to you, isn't it?
You say you live in a Good Area? To me it sounds pretty rough. I have never been attacked in my life.
Exactly. It's hilarious that someone could talk about living in a good area when they are dealing with crime like that. Denial can be pretty powerful I guess. Denial in someone incapable of employing logic is especially fatal.
If I was anywhere near your area I would invite you to a day at the range. Like anything else, much of the fear of the unknown dissapears very quickly with a bit of education.
It's a common misconception among gun nuts that it's fear of an unknown thing that is the reason others don't love guns the way they do, or feel the virtually non-existent need to own or, in areas where it's legal to do so, carry.
Since carrying a firearm I am far more careful about avoiding confrontation than in the past. You simply do not want the situation to escalate to the point where action is necessary. Your actions will have to be justified.
With regards to previous comments, I also do not understand people that choose not to carry their guns due to legal "considerations". My family takes priority to my fears of legal action. I will take justifiable action and I will answer for it.
I had to quote these in full because they will remove any doubt anyone else has that you are insane. Of course you'll deny it because the insane never think of themselves that way, but you at least are very paranoid. I suggest seeking professional help. I'm genuinely concerned. Reading something like that genuinely makes me worry - for you and for the people you are around.
A little late in the day, but a couple of observations come to mind ... the first being that the topic of 'Guns' has raised more feedback and discussion than pretty much ANY other post you've recently made ... including anything Apple-related :-)
ReplyDeleteSecond, attitudes about guns seem to vary according to geography, as much as anything else.
I've a life-long association with firearms (in the UK). In the course of keeping others safe, I've shot at people, and to this day carry a bullet in my thigh that was never removed at the time, for various reasons.
So ... I've been around guns some, yet cannot currently comprehend a mindset that would see me wishing or needing to carry a firearm (or more than one!) whenever I venture outside my home, and until relatively recently, I spent (as a civilian) MUCH of my life in the small hours well after midnight in venues and amongst people that others would almost certainly see as extremely threatening.
The fact is, violence was probably never too far away, often simmering beneath the surface, and would be witnessed often, certainly on average more than once each week.
However, in the UK, gun laws are stringent to the point of being brutal: un-licensed possession carries a MANDATORY minimum 5 year jail sentence, even for a first offence.
No arguements, explanations or excuses: get caught, go to jail.
Simple for even a neanderthal to understand, and a very effective deterrent to most 'casual' carriers ... the idiots on the street who need to feel as though they have bigger balls.....
It also makes most 'heavier' criminals think very seriously about the implications, though if they 'need' to carry a gun, no threat or legislation is likely to prevent them ... it's a calculated risk that goes with their 'job'.
However, in real terms, gun crime in the UK is very rare, and the chances of a member of the public facing an armed agressor are correspondingly small: a situation that would seem to be history in the US / South Africa / wherever.
Having said that, the recent incident with Roald Moat, producing one of the biggest police operations in UK history was literally on my doorstep: probably close enough to hear the gunshot that started the murders, followed by a week of massive police presence to the degree that local people genuinely thought twice before going out to walk the dog.
The bottom line though, is that had I been armed at the time through legitimate ownership, been confronted, and shot and killed in defence of myself, family or others ... I would have been arrested and most probably charged!
NOT an exaggeration ... it's happened elsewhere!
I'm for guns, in the right (appropriate) hands, whether they be civilian, police or armed forces.
I've had much pleasure from owning and using them over the years, but like everything else in life, there will always be others who abuse them ... and I've met professional people, licensed to 'carry', who I would not trust to sit the right way around on a toilet seat!
I don't have 'THE' definitive answer: I'm pretty sure one does not exist.
Oops ... sorry about the triple ... the site advised me unable to complete, and to re-submit!
ReplyDeleteNo prob, I've deleted the duplicates now.
ReplyDeleteInteresting thoughts there.
Philocalist- Very interesting perspective. One thing I don't understand, though- why differentiate between "gun crime" and other forms of aggression? One of the most recent murders around here was committed with a rock. The victim was beaten to death. Would it have been somehow "worse" had he been shot? I don't see that. Dead, or injured, is the same no matter what weapon is used.
ReplyDeleteIn America, the police seem to be working very hard to prove they should not be the "Only Ones" to be trusted with weapons. Your safety is your responsibility. You can no more delegate that to someone else than you can delegate your need to eat, breathe, or reproduce.
The fact that a person who is defending themselves can be "arrested" in many parts of the world is just proof that "the system" is broken and is illegitimate. The "law" in this case is assisting the bad guys and making their aggression safer for them. It is not proof that you shouldn't take responsibility for yourself.
Kent, I'm not differentiating between gun crime and other violent crime per se ... just making the point that in much of the civilised world, the chance of coming up against an armed assailant is somewhere between zero and none at all ... and apparently much greater in the US than in many other parts of the world, civilised or otherwise!
ReplyDeleteOK, should the situation occur, I'd very much like to be able to fight fire with fire, but in most cases a response has to be seen to be 'reasonable' ... I can no more shoot someone for throwing a punch at me than I can smack him with a baseball bat!
Either course of action will piss them off severely, and get me arrested AND charged for all sorts of crap that begins with use of excessive force and ends with the possibility of manslaughter or even murder charges ... and anything from a substantial fine to a life sentence for my efforts!
I agree with you largely on this issue, in that the law is a farce, giving rights to the perpetrator, when in my view, they gave up those rights the moment they initiated an attack.
Nirvana perhaps, but not High Street UK :-)
Here, the law says I can use 'reasonable force' to fend off an attack. It's got to be proportionate to the attack itself. Almost totally without exception, that precludes the use of any weapon, improvised or otherwise, and to be armed with ANYTHING as a means of self-defence can and does lead to prosecution.
Is it really reasonable or practical (or paranoid?) to be constantly armed 'just in case'? Dunno, that's a call for an individual to make, but of the answer is 'Yes' then it would be just as sensible to also constantly wear an anti-stab vest and bullet-proof vest, and complete the ensemble with a comprehensive trauma aid pack.
Or perhaps we should not leave our homes, or only venture out under armed guard? :-)
Don't misunderstand me, if me or mine were ever threatened, and I deemed that lethal force was neccesary to save lives, I'd worry about the technicalities and prosecution later ... rather that than face the alternative.
As I said earlier, no one single answer will ever suit all.
Very good points there.
ReplyDeleteEurope is very different than North America. I'm actually a bit in doubt if and when I have actually seen a real handgun "in the wild". Nobody is armed with firearms here, so carrying one would be disproportional.
I'd be willing to bet that every innocent victim thought "that could never happen to me, and not here..." before it did.
ReplyDeleteAlmost all the statistics I have seen show the UK to be much more violent than the US,(not that I necessarily believe statistics) with the increases in violent crime coming almost automatically as gun laws are made more severe.
I am also in contact with several other people who live in the UK who have confirmed this to me. Are they lying? I have no independent way to know, but I trust them.
I also know that in places in America where gun laws are liberalized, crime goes down immediately, while the places with the strongest gun prohibitions get more crime-ridden each time the laws are made more severe. Maybe not causation, but very strong correlation.
I have never been the victim of a violent crime, and have only once in my life witnessed a crime in progress. This was before I started taking responsibility for my own safety. I don't go looking for trouble. I never even think about whether something might happen as I go about my day, although from my time in the wilderness I do tend to be more alert and aware of my surroundings than just about anyone else I know. My guns are just part of getting dressed. To be there if needed, and basically ignored if not. I will probably never need to use them, but it is better to be prepared than to find myself in a situation where not having them leads to regret. No one I know personally, even those on the opposite side of the "gun issue", consider me paranoid. They could be wrong, of course.
Dave Nielsen,
ReplyDeleteI think your comments are rude and completey without any bases, totally out of tune with the tone of the rest of these comments.
Exactly. It's hilarious that someone could talk about living in a good area when they are dealing with crime like that. Denial can be pretty powerful I guess. Denial in someone incapable of employing logic is especially fatal.
I have lived in the highest income areas of a small town pretty much all my life. This is the type of area where people let their children walk around unsupervised. In fact, the Police have an office whithin eye sight from my house. I am not in denial, if nothing else I acknowledge that there really isn't a 'safe' area anywhere.
It's a common misconception among gun nuts that it's fear of an unknown thing that is the reason others don't love guns the way they do, or feel the virtually non-existent need to own or, in areas where it's legal to do so, carry.
And? Why is it a misconception? Because you say so? I am a gun nut because I have one licensed firearm? As mentioned, I have a first aid kit in my car. Does that make he a first aid kit nut too?
I had to quote these in full because they will remove any doubt anyone else has that you are insane.
I think you have only removed all doubt that you can not make any kind of actual point. You can not simply attack people (personally I might add) without any kind of REASON for your argument.
The tone of this blog seems to be of mutual respect. Lets try keep it that way.
As I understand it the violent crime rate in the UK is steadily growing past that of the US.
ReplyDeleteNot surprising, gun control has been a complete failure through out the world. UK is a top example of that, as crime has only increased since the handgun ban. A lot of UK citizens have realised that once a right is removed, that it is gone forever.
Here locally in South Africa we have had a 45% reduction in privately owned firearms since our copied version of the (now failed) Canadian gun registration came into law. In the years since our crime rate has grown at an alarming rate, showing no positive impact at all since the law was introduced. This at a cost of Billions of rands, which could have put more police on the streets.
It has also been proved in SA that a child is more likely to die by drowning in a pool than by any accidental death involving a firearm. Our own officials have admitted in parliament that the percentage of legal guns used in crime is 'negligible' and they do not consider it a problem.
Yes, it is still sad when accidents happen or when guns are involved in suicides, but we have to look at the numbers involved and put things in to perspective.
The fact is that no government on earth has managed to disarm criminals. They break the law by definition and can easily obtain guns from illegal sources. Here in SA our own police and army have lost thousands of firearms.
People do not want to admit that violence is a part of human nature. They would rather live with an illusion of safety than take precautions to protect themselves.
The great thing about freedom of choice is that a person can choose to do what he or she wants to do. If you want and can carry legally, then do it. If you don't want to own a firearm then don't! But at the same time don't try to destroy the rights of others to do so, without strong facts to back up your claims! So for the gun free "nuts" have failed to do so, because facts are not on their side! This history of gun control on this planet is proof of that.
Philocalist,
ReplyDeleteIs it really reasonable or practical (or paranoid?) to be constantly armed 'just in case'? Dunno, that's a call for an individual to make, but of the answer is 'Yes' then it would be just as sensible to also constantly wear an anti-stab vest and bullet-proof vest, and complete the ensemble with a comprehensive trauma aid pack.
Or perhaps we should not leave our homes, or only venture out under armed guard? :-)
I appreciate what you are saying, but the practical implications of wearing a bullet proof vest are obviously quite different to carrying a concealed pistol. It takes me a few moments to holster a pistol and I can easily forget it the rest of the day. A bullet proof vest is very heavy and would break normal routine quite a lot.
Seeing as I have already been in a few situations involving armed attackers, I am willing to make that small compromise of slipping a pistol into a holster. That is my personal choice.
I don't know how shielded the media is against what is happening here in South Africa, but we have had some terribly violent attacks in recent history. This involves the systematic murder of some 3000 + white farmers. There have been several cases where women have been raped in front of their husbands and then killed. In one particular case it involved impaling a woman with a broom stick (through the vagina) until she died. Completely barbaric!
I think a lot of countries that do not have this kind of violence on a daily bases have become 'soft' on criminals, and the media seems to support this victim mindset. While people that live in 'safer' countries debate how nasty and evil guns are, the people that really have to deal with crime suffer and are disarmed by their own governments.
For some reason we have accepted crime and disgusting murder as reality, and that insinct to rise up and fight has been beaten out us.
There is something completely wrong when good people do not stand up and fight to protect their own families. It is even worse that there are others that are in such great denial that they would leave these people defenseless. In the case of the genocide of these white farmers, the victims live miles away from any police and are completely on their own. People are simply killed for the sake of killing and political agenda. Robbery is not the motive behind these killings.
If you think I am making up nonesense about the genocide of these farmers, before commenting, please do some research. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks for a start.
I have photos from the crime scene I mentioned with regards to the broom stick. I will give the links if someone really wants it, but I would warn that it is very upsetting. More than you will believe.
I am not a "gun nut". I am somebody that has a right to protect himself and that right only means something if I have the practical means to do so.
Jacques:
ReplyDeleteI'm not taking a 'pop' at anyone specific with my comments: with very little research you'll find that I fall very firmly on the side of support for (responsible) gun ownership.
I'll refer back to my comment about a response being 'adequate and proportionate'.
Quite frankly, living in the environment you describe is not something I would continue to do through choice ... emigration, or at least serious relocation comes to mind:-)
In the event that is not possible (or even desireable?) I'd personally make sure that I was armed to the teeth, within the law ... SOD the hidden pistol; I'd want something very large, obvious and capable of dishing out some serious grief if I pressed the trigger.
And quite frankly, if for whatever reason I was living so remote as to be beyond the help of authorities in the event of an attack such as you describe, I'm reasonably certain that I would arm myself appropriately (using a hidden cache if neccesary) and disregard the laws: if I can't be protected within the law, even by the authorities, what real alternative do you have but to protect you and yours by whatever means necessary, even if it means stepping outside the rules?
And somewhere within these posts is a reference to the UK being more violent the America?
No doubt someone will show statistics that indicate this to be true (but we all know about 'statistics', don't we?), but the simple fact is that in all of my life I've never been to a town or city in the UK (or anywhere else in Europe, for that matter!)where I felt unsafe to walk alone, or threatened, and I've yet to see an alleyway that I would consciously avoid, or be faced by a 'street gang'.
OK, I'm a bit bigger than average and probably not the prettiest person you will ever see. I know that I can and sometimes DO INTENTIONALLY give out a impression that leaves people in no doubt at all that they really do NOT want to piss me off ... and it's surprising how effective that alone can be as a deterrent ... yet anyone who knows me also knows that I'm likely the friendliest, most protective guy you'll come across in normal life.
I've lived a life that has so far been far from sheltered: it's helped put me (legally) in a position where I could effectively retire a few years before my 50th birthday ... one of the results of which is a new baby boy :-)
Does ANYONE at all think I would really compromise on keeping him safe, at any cost ... with or without a gun?
Here in the UK, we have crime and criminals pretty much like anywhere else (though it has to be said that more and more of the real 'heavyweights' are 'imports', legal or otherwise, from many countries around the world.
In real terms though, gun crime and the public are very rarely involved, though 'regular' violence does occur pretty much like anywhere else ... it's an unfortunate part of human nature.
On balance, I'd rather be here in the UK without a gun, than in the US , South Africa or anywhere else with a similar 'climate', with a gun.
Philocalist- "...where I felt unsafe..."
ReplyDelete"Feelings" are not an accurate measure of anything but perceptions. They can be dead wrong. You can never have all the facts.
"I'd rather be here in the UK without a gun, than in the US , South Africa or anywhere else with a similar 'climate', with a gun.
And that's fine, but is it based on actual first-hand knowledge or experience, or is it based on perceptions and what you have heard from others who are going by what they believe to be true? Or who may have an agenda that includes convincing you that your rights are not as important as their "laws" are.
I feel very safe all the time. I'm not willing to be irresponsible and depend on that feeling, though. And no matter where I happen to be, I know things can happen. It isn't always bad people, either. There are wild animals that might like to have you for a snack. There are aggressive (or inappropriately protective) dogs.
Even if I were in the safe-feeling UK I would want to be armed. You can never count on a hired security official, like a policeman, to value your safety as highly as you do. It's just part of being responsible for yourself.
Guns are not the only things I carry in case I need them. I have knives because I am always needing a blade to open something or get a splinter out of someone's finger or to whittle a stick when I am bored. I carry a lighter because you never know when you might need access to fire (humanity's first technology). I carry safety pins and have "rescued" people from broken zippers. I carry a small light on my keyring. Friends always come to me first when they need something, expecting that if anyone has it, I probably do. I like being prepared and I hate not having something that I need just because I didn't think of having it available.
It may also be true that at the moment the levels of gun crime in the UK are lower than the US, but the fact is that the rate of growth in violent crime is exceeding that of the US. The UK is becoming worse and worse, while the US is actually gaining ground on crime.
ReplyDeleteMore and more criminals are armed in the UK (despite the hand gun ban) than before, and they know the citizens are completely defenseless.
In one case recently a celeb in the UK was 'cautioned' for waving a knife (behind a closed window while in her own kitchen) at people trying to break in to her house. In these modern times we would rather arrest the victim for protecting themselves than the criminals!
That is just ridiculous to me, and just an example of how the UK has bought into a complete victim mentality.
While we are on the topic, do people realise that almost every genocide on earth (including the Nazi extermination of the Jews) was preceeded by severe gun control? We need to step back and look at the lessons of history too.
Kent: "Feelings" are not an accurate measure of anything but perceptions. They can be dead wrong. You can never have all the facts.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but with or without all the facts, I've been right, for more than 50 years (or at least the adult part of it!)
I too feel safe, all of the time ... WITHOUT a gun or a knife in my pocket, and have been (safe) for more than half a century.
I guess geography MUST come into it, no?
My preference for being here in the UK IS based on actual experience (here in the UK) The comparison was made purely on the attractive pictures painted by you and Jacques, of the US and South Africa respectively.
I HAVE been to SA and seen a little: I've absolutely zero dseire to set foot in the US unless it was to float along the Grand Canyon, MY way :-)
In the UK I sit right at the top of the food chain: dogs in a civilised society generally show respect for man. We simply do not have them in packs running wild, and in fact they are rarely seen loose on the street at all.
..... and even in the UK, you would WANT to carry guns (and knives?), just in case you need them for self defense?
Sorry sunbeam, it HAS to be said ... you ARE paranoid.
THAT is the precise arguement used by the uneducated yobs in the UK, when they are caught carrying guns (or knives) illegally ... amazing how all the bravado and bullshit vanishes in court when they KNOW they are going to jail for a minimum of 5 years .... sphincters start twitching, suddenly it's not clever anymore.
As I've already stated, I'm all for APPROPRIATE public ownership of guns ... the 'right' sort of people ... the 'safe' sort, though in reality I realise that there is no safeguard in existence that will prevent any particular individual flipping for no apparent reason.
How do you decide who is 'safe'? Dunno: thats a very big question that someone else will have to answer, but I can vitually guarantee that any application from someone with paranoid tendencies would be flatly refused, and rightly so, as it's in the public interest.
Being prepared for all eventualities is all well and good ... over here we have (legal!) Swiss Army knives for just that purpose.
And Boy Scouts! :-)
Gun crime in the UK growing at a faster rate that in the US? Sounds quite surprising, but remember that this is just a statistic ... a small increase in frequency above an initially low number WILL show as an apparently faster growth rate than an increase of several thousand added to a number in excess of 100,000 ... but where would you rather be ... where the crime has increased by a small number, or by thousands?
Somethinmg else I suspect you will discover, possibly from the same source, is that within the UK, the 'innocent public' are very rarely involved in gun - related crime ... it's usually criminals shooting each other, or that other prime bunch, gun in one hand while the knuckles of the other drag the ground, taking pot-shots at the clone across the road because they 'dissed' them.
Darwins theory working at its best, I would say, no?
50th post?
ReplyDeleteYAAAAAY!!! :-)
Philocalist: "it's usually criminals shooting each other, or that other prime bunch, gun in one hand while the knuckles of the other drag the ground, taking pot-shots at the clone across the road because they 'dissed' them."
ReplyDeleteExactly the same as over here. But "usually" doesn't mean "invariably", does it?
Philocalist said...
ReplyDelete"I guess geography MUST come into it, no?"
I believe that there are MANY factors that go into the causation of crime; geography only being a minor issue. There are pockets of crime all over the world, like there are without. It has nothing to do w/whether a person is in a poor neighborhood or rich; crime "lives" in BOTH sectors. Obviously, one neighborhood has "too much" and another has "too little;" either can be "rich," in worldly goods or "poor" in a lack of same but BOTH have lacked in nurturing and character-building which can only take place when there is someone there who "invests" in the future by "training up" a child from the time [s]he is born. Without the love and admonition of same, "people perish." But people don't want to heed that. They would rather try to be their own boss; fear others; and, basically, not trust. People who are raised without love live in fear their entire lives, unless they choose to break free of their fears. It ain't easy but no one said we were put here to run a carnival! :-/ Weapons DON'T impart "brotherly love" towards anyone...only fear; and...as long as fear prevails, we will continue to have "anarchy" amongst each other, person to person and nation to nation. It's time to lay down ALL of the "weapons" - seen an unseen - weapons, hate, malice, vengeance, etc. and hold out a hand in peace and goodwill! People need to "rise above" those that came before them and harmed them mentally, physically, and emotionally, and "be what you want to see in the world" to your brother. There's just no other way to do it but to start with ourselves by being that example. Again...it ain't easy but it is necessary and, as long as there is breath, there is a chance to choose to want to be different than we are, now.
And trust me, those of us who have birthed children are counting on men - EVERYWHERE - to HELP US MAKE A DIFFERENCE BY YOUR EXAMPLE! What is your example to those around you: "fear" or "love"?
TC- I understand your desire to feel your children are safe and are left a better world, but do you really think people who want to hurt other people will decide to be nice if all the good people disarm? Love, real love, includes the willingness (and ability) to protect your innocent children from harm.
ReplyDeleteThe Dalai Lama said: "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."
I don't think he is a bad guy who is lacking in love.
Dean Koontz (admittedly not in the same category) said: "In self defense and in defense of the innocent, killing is not murder, hesitation is not moral, and cowardice is the only sin."
To all the weapon fans out there: my verif says you're a bunch of "likers"!
ReplyDelete(Uhm... is that even an insult? :-)
That's right, baby, the Emperor of Offtopicstan is back in town! [Evil maniacal laughter. All pro-guns move their hands in a defense reflex.]
If you dont expect a multi-part post, then you're new on this planet. }:-)
"I have noticed that my interest in guns tends to rise when I'm not getting laid often enough. Seriously."
Ach zo! Very indereztink! Und do you think it iz related to your relationship mit your father, ya?
The thing is, if guns were used (and fired) as often as medical science to try and save lives in delicate, sometimes critical situations, the casualties would be beyond compare.
We've had this discussion before. And I've already mentioned several times that the risk of having a mere general anaesthesia is, in absolute numbers, something scary with many yearly casualties. But it is an unavoidable risk if we are to save those countless lives thanks to the possibilities of surgery. The overall raw benefit is staggering.
BTW, do you know who is history's most terrible mass-mudrerer? The humble mosquito. The diseases it spreads are more "efficient" than any war, nay, ALL the wars put together!
So, you can imagine how necessary medicine is.
Incompetence of daily-encountered Doctors is a whole other topic. As is their eventual lack of ethics, making needless prescriptions just to rack more money.
Recent statistic I saw in an online news article: criminality in Chicago is so bad today, that if you live there you'd be better off signing up for Iraq or Afghanistan, it's less dangerous in terms of human deaths for an American!
Recent trend in criminality in France: for the past decade, attacks on armored cars have more and more been using military-grade weapons: high caliber, automatic, grenades, rocket launchers...
Me, I once found in a Lebanon TOY STORE an authentic nunchaku, which Bruce Lee could have used without shame. Priced less than $4.
So, now you COULD say I have a defensive weapon against the occasional burglar entering my home. Probably more intimidating than my kitchen knives, too. ;-)
It's safely tucked away from the kids. You know, just in case of an accidental misfire!
John AND Steve:
My main problem is with psychologically unbalanced people who carry a weapon capable of killing in order to feel powerful. Whatever the use: against people, or in fact for "sportive hunting". The cases where hunting is USEFUL are very few in today's world.
At the start of the summer, we saw storks migrating back in the sky, right over my head. An SUV rushed along the road in front of our house, to release a couple of guys with M16 machine guns, who started firing at these useful and utterly unedible birds! A reflex, among Lebanese...
Good thing I fired my camera before they scared all these poor birds away.
Now, let us wonder: how many weapons enthusiasts ARE NOT as primitive?...
We all know that those who feel small in the pants will very often be fond of big cars aand big guns, AND lack the sense to use them wisely.
[Cont'd]
The law in Lebanon prohibits the purchase of combat firearms... but licenses for CARRYING them are routinely issued by the State's administrative services... including for effing rocket launchers!
ReplyDeleteSomebody dare tell me this isn't a knowing encouragement of contraband AND anarchy?
"Scenic Lebanon... land of the everlasting fireworks."
On the plus side, few burglars enter an unknown house at night, because they KNOW they can be shot in perfect legality.
Unlike in France... You shoot and kill a burglar at night, you'll get arrested. Even if they were two and you're a 73-year old living alone in the countryside. (Recent affair, still unconcluded.) Like Kent said, that law is BROKEN.
Basically, anyone SHOULD have the full right to defend themselves... but should make some sort of proof that they can responsibly handle a weapon! Do you know where the highly violent Mexican drug gangs get most of their very efficient firearms? Purchased in perfect legality in neighboring USA! Who then spend fortunes helping Mexico fight drug cartels. Better believe it, it's damn true!
So, undoubtedly, gun sale in the USA is overly uncontrolled. And when any wanton criminal can get one, YOU AND I will need one too.
It's a neverending debate: we don't want the criminals to be the only ones having them, but when anyone can buy them, criminals will be the first to stand in line with an innocent smile.
Rock,
OF COURSE guns are tools. Simply, they are tools designed for killing or wounding. You never saw the appallingly bad horror movie The Toolbox Murders?...
"I am trained to kill a man with a pencil in 17 different ways." Not counting written attacks at his manhood driving him to suicide. :-P
It's all in the attitude and intent. Think of baseball bats, or mere broomsticks. [Wow! Wrote this before I saw the drama mentioned by Jacques]
Many Lebanese have decorative ancient weapons on their walls, usually in the lines of unsharpened swords. For their looks and historical symbolism? Not a problem. With the wrong macho attitude, or with reckless people who don't know about safety rules? Very, very bad.
Old local proverb: "A weapon, in the hands of a shit-head, will cause harm."
I think it's a good way to summarize the issue. :-)
Anonymous analyzed...
"Specious argument - it's the non-accidental gun deaths that are the big problem. Number of deliberate doctor deaths is quite small."
I sure agree with you there!!! :-)
And, for the sake of Goodwin's law, I'll add that mentioning the nazi experiments in WW2 would be a grave bias. ;-)
Kent McManigal 'fessed up...
"I like guns. A lot."
Well, Kent, I sort of figured you did. Some subliminal subtle hint in your avatar photo, maybe? ;-)
But I'm sure you'll agree with me that you're far more mature than the average lebanese shit-head. I'm confident you'd pass any and all responsibility tests if there were any for owning a gun. Fer starters, you've given some thought to what it implies. But I believe you're the exception, not the rule.
TC,
The sad flaw in your argument is that criminals will always manage to make weapons.
Dick Cheney, an idiot? Why? Just because he can't tell the difference between a partridge and a fellow Republican? Big deal. ;-p LOL!
"do you know how many rapes occur between strangers?"
Ouch. Sad but true. Same for homicides: WAY too often, you get murdered by someone you knew and trusted, and often loved.
But can you impose mental maturity by any sort of law? You don't actually need ANY weapon at all if you decide to kill.
Although Batman once said it best: "I know that PEOPLE kill people... but guns make it way too easy for my taste!"
[Cont'd]
Perhaps the most frightening weapon I own is the VERY sharp pocket knife I used to rely on before correcting fluid became widespread. That thing is sharp as a razor. And I keep it VERY WELL stashed away.
ReplyDeleteBesides, IF the kids disobey and enter my room without permission, my many action figures, plushies and other toys will make for the best distraction. I've taken all possible precautions. They'll never get to finding the dangerous stuff, I've seen to it.
Precaution #1: EDUCATING them. "Do not touch this or that, it is very dangerous."
Goes for kitchen knives and electrical sockets too.
They listen, thanks to my strict Education Rule #0: never lie to or bullshit a child.
(sigh) Big debate. And relevant arguments from both sides.
I believe the key lies, as always, in the minds of people. If everybody was educated to be a responsible and intelligent adult, there WOULD be no problems. There would be no criminals, either. But this is the real world, so... sorry, TC, but you're too idealistic to suceed. :-(
"(I imagine they're pretty safe unless you hit an eye.)"
Never RELY on something that shoots projectiles to be harmless/safe. TC's linked article made that quite clear. There are MANY vulnerable spots in the human body... and you never really know how much something can hurt before you try it. Basic rule: always follow dave_at_efi's advice. Because yes, Dave Nielsen, many people who wield guns ARE that dumb. I've seen them around me all my life. (See the proverb above.)
"The chances of needing to defend myself like that are so absurdly remote that it's not worth the bother."
It's not worth living in constant ANGUISH and fear. But some practical knowledge of survival skills won't HURT you. Knowledge is power. Ignorance is weekness.
Of course, some basic sense can also mean immense power in survival situations, you don't always need to study tons of books. :-)
"I don't want to live in your world, Kent. Too paranoid."
Remember: it's only paranoia if the danger doesn't really exist. Have you any idea of the number of carefully concealed incest rapes that happen in families behind closed doors? Some parts of this world ARE a real jungle, even in the "civilized West" of today.
And I'm not even going to start ranting about Lebanon! Use your imagination. A country where anarchy and political feudalism are the only true system, under a slim varnish of law and order.
" eolake reminisced...
"I have never been attacked in my life."
No offense, buddy, but your towering looks don't really encourage an attacker. Your peaceful nature isn't as obvious as your size and serious expression. Oh, and your big manly hands that could strangle a StBernard. :-)
I'm sure you're way stronger that you imagine, and could fend for yourself quite well in an emergency situation. Bet you never had to break down a door in a burning building... but I'm sure you could.
Also, you don't really help build assault statistics, since you tend to be such a recluse. YOUR own odds are quite low.
You're mostly at risk of getting raped by a lonely spinster, you handsome viking, you. (^_^)
eolake immediately asked Jacques...
"Do you usually carry a gun?
(Which size?)"
Hey, you're just like his anti-gunner friend! :-)
A Glock 19? I heard that's maybe the most reliable pistol in the world! Good choice. (Tries to stifle admiring gaze.)
[Cont'd]
"I don't get, though, why there isn't any effective alternative which disables an attacker without serious injury."
ReplyDeleteThere are, such as the taser, but all usually come with significant practical limitations. For instance, it's not easy at all to fend off a pack of wild dogs or several hoodlums at once with a taser that can only be used on one target at a time.
And South Africa is a country where violent crime rate is quite high. You meet a troublemaker, it's highly useful to have some dissuasion with you.
No matter your skin color.
"You can 'feel' any way you like, but knowing the facts can only be a good thing."
I can only agree with such a statement.
I "feel" very negatively about any prospect of violence. But, like any normal human, I prefer to feel safe than helpless "if ever..." Fact.
The sad truth is, that too much pacifism always gets taken for an invite to get abused. Starting with school bullying on the discreet silent lonely types. All the way to 9/11, when some wanted terrorists were complacently allowed aboard airliners after flying lessons!
Either you have a strong, dissuasive authority keeping order where you live, or you'll have to rely on some amount of dissuasion for these situations where kind calm just isn't enough.
Only 2 states in the US forbid this practice to "ordinary citizens", although most require a "permit".
Is the permit different if you change States, or does having one suffice for the whole country?
"When I lived in Colorado I almost always carried openly and it was never an issue or a provocation."
Well, Kent, I've seen your photo on your blog, and you too don't exactly look like a Woody Allen bully magnet. :-)
But, of course, this also depends in great part on the conventional attitudes where you live. Clearly, some places consider concealed weapons as "intention of trouble", while others view visible weapons as a provocation. Let's not get sidetracked into THAT complex debate!
Even with State officials such as cops or Mounties, their visible service weapon can be viewed both ways: a well visible symbol of official authority, or an ostentacious tool of oppression.
"I spent (as a civilian) MUCH of my life in the small hours well after midnight in venues and amongst people that others would almost certainly see as extremely threatening."
Ever strolled Western Beirut after dark when the power is out, Philocalist?
I have. But I must confess, my main fear was to get lost. :-)
Then again... I didn't have a lot of cash on me, to worry about muggers. Its loss would've been way cheaper than some stitches at the ER.
"I don't have 'THE' definitive answer: I'm pretty sure one does not exist."
Only an idiot could challenge that statement. :-)
[Cont'd]
[Final part]
ReplyDelete"No one I know personally, even those on the opposite side of the "gun issue", consider me paranoid. They could be wrong, of course."
Yo, Kent! Haven't you read the sign, man? "No feeding the trolls."
You'll disturb their normal wild instincts if you feed them. ;-p
Plus, we're smack in the middle of their mating season!
"A lot of UK citizens have realised that once a right is removed, that it is gone forever."
Forget handguns: nowadays in the UK, it is illegal to take a photo of your assailant for identification purposes, without their written consent! :-P
"The fact is that no government on earth has managed to disarm criminals."
Stating the painfully obvious there... :-(
Still, I maintain that the gun legislation in the USA is too loose. A reasonable amount of legal control wouldn't harm the rights of citizens, it would just limit the ease with which one with bad intentions can go Columbine without so much as a psychological evaluation to swiftly detect their obvious latent schizophrenia.
So far, I haven't seen any "gun nuts" on this thread, Charlton Heston style. Only people who insist that a responsible attitude is paramount if/when you have a gun. I wish ALL gun owners were this responsible! Then we wouldn't have many problems left, would we?...
"I don't know how shielded the media is against what is happening here in South Africa"
I'd say, BADLY shielded. Any mention of the current, de facto, extremely intense reverse apartheid is an unspoken mediatic taboo.
"There are aggressive (or inappropriately protective) dogs."
Psychologically imbalanced domestic dogs are more dangerous that all the wolves and bears and lions in the world. Probably far more numerous, too, even if you only count the dangerous ones!
That Dali Lama quote is funny! "It would be reasonable"... Rather, yes!
Not seeking the situation is one thing. But letting yourself be killed when a situation COMES after you, such as an undiagnosed psychotic opening fire at the crowd in a university? That's not really in my temperament either.
End of today's serial. You can all take five, people.