Bronislaus points to this article which supports my stance that art does not have to be good to be called art.
"If you make art, you’re an artist. If you produce bad art (I’m not sure how I’d classify it) then perhaps you are not a very good artist, but you are nonetheless an artist. In my view, that is. As for the whole good art/bad art thing, I’m always mindful of the words of E. B. White, who commented “There is no good art, or bad art. There is just Art, and damn little of it.”"
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I think art, like music, is a personal thing, we all have our own definitions and thats how it should be, religion is the same but like art to a degree and music to a lesser degree some people are egotistical enough to try and force their own opinions onto other people, people that think there should be a universal definition of art or good or bad art are fascists
ReplyDeleteThey just want their own definition to be the truth. This is what most people want.
ReplyDeleteBut art is a cultural concept. That we take as granted if we grew up in that culture, in those years. The content of the concept varies according to regions, social level, time... If there is a need for that concept. In some "traditional" cultures the concept does not even exist.
I find that so hard to imagine, given that Art has always been the most important element in my life.
ReplyDelete"They just want their own definition to be the truth. This is what most people want."
ReplyDeleteIn a way their own definition is the truth, but only for them. I guess people(or their egos anyway) feel threatened, or maybe cant even comprehend, that other people might be different from them.
"and damn little of it", I agree.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't have to be good, but at the very least it has to TRY and be. Be art, I mean.
For instance, the tornado aftermath-like mess of a teenager's room might feel quite rich artistically at first glance, but it's just the result of random neglect, isn't it?
Culturally interesting, sure. But nobody MADE art there.
Broad definitions are one thing. But when it sounds like you'd readily consider anything as art, you're not only "upsetting" those with very specific standards, but also the philosophers.
Mine is not an aesthetic definition of art. I'll readily admit there's art I find positively hideous, and still let it be called art.
Then again, with some of today's "popular" music, especially in the Middle East, again I'm not sure there's any talent or even artistic EFFORT put in there. Commercial audio "soup". In little foil-packed cubes.
Even you, Eolake: sometimes you just think -and say- that something like a new song or film is very bad. But don't you think there are some instances where the absence of any creative effort is so blatant that you'd say "This is not art, this is a mockery, a cheap attempt to cash in a quick buck from a few ignorants"?
[Of course, this expression has already been ruined by overuse...]
Or, to shamelessly plagiarize Suhiko's example, aren't there instances when you feel confident to say "This is not religion, this is a cult" (or "this is mere fanatism")?
Would the silliest superstitions enter the broad definition of religion, simply because they are emotionally-charged symbolic beliefs? What about when superstition veers into obsessive-compulsive neurosis? Some OCD patients have an openly admitted phobic component: "I feel like if I break the rituals, something terrible is going to happen. Even if I know it's silly."
About music:
I read a very interesting article, many years ago, revealing that the taste for certain styles of music was genetically determined. For instance, if you were adopted and raised in Austria, and born in Beirut or Mumbai, it's quite likely that you'll have a favorable inclination for arab/indian music which your parents and friends will never share.
As for fascists, Suhiko... I'm sure you'll agree that THIS is also a widely variable definition.
It is always "the other" who is the fascist. Or the terrorist, in the instance of the israelo-palestinian conflict. :-(
"I guess people[...] can't even comprehend, that other people might be different from them."
That's a load of nonsense. Therefore you must die, urgently. Care to come to my Altar of Blood, say, this Saturday around 2 PM? Thank you for your cooperation, much obliged. We've got to keep this world ideologically pure, right?
We'll be providing the chanting crowds etc, just "come as you are".
"As for fascists, Suhiko... I'm sure you'll agree that THIS is also a widely variable definition."
ReplyDeleteYes, I think thats exactly the point. Art, god, fascist, its all semantics, there arent agreed meanings for these words, we fight over them without even knowing what they mean, Im sure religious wars have been fought just over misunderstandings of the meanings of words, but the arrogance of the human ego is such that we assume everyone applies the same meanings to those words as ourselves
Pascal, I think you're confusing the issue by lumping together a messy room with a bad movie or song. The former clearly has nothing to do with art, the latter is merely bad art.
ReplyDeleteYou must understand I'm talking here about an attempted mechanical definition of art, not a grasp at what's at the heart of art.
Aniko wrote: "In some "traditional" cultures the concept does not even exist."
ReplyDeleteEolake: "I find that so hard to imagine, given that Art has always been the most important element in my life."
I think you are missing the point here. :-) It does not mean that the "art" as we think of it does not exist. They have several very precise words for different kinds of dances, music, painting, wood-carving etc. But it is kind of a natural part of life. There is no boundary set between art and non-art: it is just part of life. One person will build good houses, the other dance good dances. Neither of them will be defined as "artist".
Of course now every culture communicates with mainstream, the concept of art is probably there everywhere. But I like that in such a highly "artistic" tradition as the Balinese one, there was no concept of art. Maybe this is why it was so "artistic"?
C'est possible.
ReplyDeleteI actually did sort of mean that having the *concept* of art has been important to me. The *idea* of consciously manipulating beauty. And what is beauty. The philosophy about it, beyond just the act.
Concepts cut the world in arbitrary slices.
ReplyDeleteI am sure having the concept of *art* is very nice and very fruitful. But it can be fruitful to have those things defined from different standing points.
Thus, for example, I have never known a culture where *art* is so much part of everyday life than in Bali. For us occidentals, one has to be an artist to deal with such things.
"but it can be fruitful to have those things defined from different standing points."
ReplyDeleteSure, I didn't say it was bad, only hard to imagine. :-)
:-)
ReplyDeleteSo, Eo, you're saying Suhiko's right about War of the Words.
ReplyDeleteOkay. Works for me. :-)
Now, since this was WAY too short, on with the hail of various pointless ramblings. Tally-ho!
Suhiko, I still have to contradict you about the detail of most wars being over the meaning of words. That's the official excuse. An excuse for very petty / greedy / hateful / intolerant / dominance REAL motives.
Now, I think we can all agree that war "needs to be noble" in order to justify itself.
Whatever "noble" means. :-P
I thought it was a PEACE prize?...
Eo,
I didn't really mean bad art. More like cheap art. Somebody barely making an effort, if any at all, and saying "this is art, you just don't understand it" as an excuse for creative laziness.
Like the way some teachers will ask: "You call THIS homework? There's nothing in there."
I'll wish you good luck with your mechanical definition. I think it's too sophisticated a project, or maybe too "you", for me to "get" it. Feels like I'm only distracting the Maestro with constantly off-topic questions.
But I bet art teachers are used to that. :-)
Speaking of mechanical art, I heard that Michael Bay and Spielberg are making a new Transformers movie for this summer. Woo-hoo!
Now, Transformer toys, THAT's art. And talent. Especially the modern ones (some of the oldest were a bit too simple). I mean, each of them is an original mechanical creation, a vehicle toy whose parts separate and move and slide and turn and clip and make a humanoid robot, and with great care to every detail. I totally admire the people who design these!
Yes, I'm a Transformers fan and big collector. But I pick every model that I choose to buy, some just don't inspire me enough.
In fact, as a proof that they're each an aesthetic and technical challenge, on occasions there are minor design flaws, usually forcing me to do a little modding:
-I made the wrist drills of my Animated Bumblebee fold all the way in, like they were clearly supposed to.
-And I discovered a hidden miniature Frenzy inside the Movie's Barricade deluxe boxed diaporama version, which wouldn't come apart before some disassembling.
Photos some distant day on my blog.
I think one thing that changes into another is intrinsicall! artistic. Like Arcimboldo's fruit portraits, or Escher's changing perspectives, or cuisine. Optical illusions, fun with perceptions, hanging upside-down from a tree branch and getting dizzy staring at the sky "below"... heck, children are artistic at the core!
Aniko :
"There is no boundary set between art and non-art"
Like you could say that for some people "There is no boundary set between sight and color". [Ex.: Amazonian Yanomani]
Or "hiking and upright locomotion" [Kalahari Bushmen]
Or "taste and food texture" [the Japanese]
Or "talking and comminucating" [Opposite of a chatterbox gossip Eolake Stobblehouse]
Or "living together and sharing and helping" [Amazonian Zo'e, nude and carefree ; Kalahari Bushmen ; Tanzanian Himba ; Mali Dogons ; Siberian Nenetses.......]
Or "romantic feelings and sexual attraction" [P-04 Referent]
;-)
Or "religion/confession and community and national politics" [random average Lebanese]
:-(
To some people, some boundaries are pointless complication of life.
That can be good or bad. Depends.
I guess that's semantic art then, eh? ;-)
"Concepts cut the world in arbitrary slices."
That's called analysis.
Really. Literally. Analysis in Geometry is all about cutting function curves in slices. :-)
Analysis in Geometry knows, by definition, that is uses an arbitrary and incorrect approximation of reality to better understand it. In Mathematics, it is a mental tool that sometimes helps discover major elements of the Real Thing which were never found by other means. Even if other means are, most of the time, later proven to exist.
What I'm trying to say, is that life and art can have some things in common with such an abstract "pure" science as Mathematics.
When you remember that the Whole is still always there, it can be very profitable and educational to reflect on slices, bits, parts, aspects, particular angles... Shift perspectives, if you'll pardon the pun!
"But it can be fruitful to have those things defined from different standing points."
That's another perspective on different perspectives.
So, in a way, it's a useful reflection on how to usefully reflect. Or what neo-hippies would say as: "Diversity makes the world richer." Other cultures have a lot to bring us.
This is getting very deeply all-out universalo-philosophical! Now to drag global warming into it and make it seem on-topic...
;-)
Say, speaking of artistic choices, why am I the only one to have a profile image that's actually a profile image?
"Why do they call it a profile, if you always FACE people? I mean, what's up with THAT?!?" -- [The ranting Swede.]
"Like the way some teachers will ask: "You call THIS homework? There's nothing in there.""
ReplyDeleteExactly, it's not a definition, it's a value judgment.
P-O4 Referent,
ReplyDeleteI am wordless. in awe.
You understood all that? That confirms it, you're smarter than I.
ReplyDeleteWell, Aniko, it's true : I can't have sex with a person who doesn't inspire me feelings. I perceive both love and sex to be about intimacy, total trust, mutual respect... Part of my self-built system of values.
ReplyDeleteThose who feel and live more "freely", good for them, but not my style. I just HAD to find something more sensible than the rigorist education of school and the family, and that was it. It makes me feel at peace with my deepest self. ("Please don't stare, my soul is naked." ;-)
"it's not a definition, it's a value judgment."
Come on, Eo, you know that sometimes the student really didn't bother to try.
True, if a teacher used such an attitude and tone with me, I wouldn't feel inclined to try either. But that's another matter.
The one and only zero (an "F", for youse yankees) that I ever had on my monthly school report, was on my best and fave subject: French essay. That time, I turned in a blank paper. Didn't write a single letter.
Okay, so first, that was unfair. I at least deserved top marks at tidiness, school rules.
Then, I had a very valid excuse. Which nobody ever bothered asking me about, hello educational dedication, the top student bombs and nobody considers having a talk with 'im about it?
I'll let you judge by yourselves. The subject was: "While traveling abroad, you meet a friend from Lebanon, and start talking about the homeland and nostalgia."
WHAT homeland? That cloaca of a hell-hole tearing itself apart in some fucking civil war since as early as I could hold a memory? The few friends that I *did* have, I couldn't imagine for a second talking with them about our "homeland". My main dream always was actually LEAVING, but no such luck...
I tried, I did. For a full hour, until the bell rang, I stared at that blank page trying to imagine something worth saying.
Nada. Might as well call a cat into the bathtub.
On hindsight, I should have rephrased the subject: "What is oblivion?"
That would have aced it.
Still painfully unsure I have a homeland today. We'll see by the 7th of June. Maybe come election day, we'll prove there still is room to tear Hell a new orifice, right here at the bottom of the Mediterranean sack.
Me? Still bitter about that F?
Why, I have no idea what you're talking about.
To think I was supposedly that teacher's fave student, always #1.
Jerk.
He looked very much like Spalding in Tintin's Flight 714.
Feeling naked again. Or maybe the house is just chilly in this early morning. Flu's not entirely over, still convalescing.
Still convalescing about many things. Worried my "homeland" might be terminal.
Might be terminal stupidity...
"You understood all that? That confirms it, you're smarter than I."
ReplyDeleteOr maybe you're just too modest, Captain Eo.
I express my ideas in a very artistic manner. If you don't get it, doesn't mean you're stupid, maybe sometimes I'm just not your style. :-)
"On second thought... maybe I could get used to that smile." -- [Daddy Warbucks]
"Come on, Eo, you know that sometimes the student really didn't bother to try."
ReplyDeleteSure, and so we are quite right to use a value judgment. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's a different thing from an identity assignment.
Eo,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the compliment!
Though I may be smart, (of course I am, but better others state it instead of me :-) it is also about where your interest goes. I have grown up between different cultures, and just realized that different cultures define thing differently. I found it interesting, and I am dedicating myself to the exploration of this diversity. I enjoy this exploration, because I think it makes me more free, it gives me more ways of seeing the world.. It is my job and my hobby.
So if we talk anthropology, I understand. :-) I should.
I liked the elegance of the summary by Pascal P-04!
Pascal:
"I just HAD to find something more sensible than the rigorist education of school and the family."
Yes, what I think is great about these studies is that they can give you new grounding if the one in your culture seems not to fit so well... :-)
/What was the logical connection with sex? I guess none, just P-referent talking. :-)/
I don't know how to change insane populations. When I studies anthropology, I thought it would be useful to be some kind of cultural mediator, that my sense of communication and understanding of cultural differences will be useful. Than I step by step I understood how the world works, and I realized that it is possibly vain, all is about money...
So I don't know is it is better to be insane, or to see that the others are and... well... not to be able to do much about it.
I guess there is no choice anyway.
Exactly.
ReplyDeleteIt's been a relief for me to embrace A Course In Miracles's dictum: "seek not to change the world, but choose to change your mind about the world".
The theory being that the world is just a projection anyway.
Everybody cannot become a monk...
ReplyDeleteYou sound slightly frustrated. Are you frustrated with an aspect of your life, or with me seeming "preachy"?
ReplyDelete.
ReplyDelete:-D
Hum... I don't know.
But nice reply. :-)
I'm not going to weigh in on this one again, but I was reading The R. Crumb Handbook yesterday and came across a quote I liked and which kind of sums up my position, at least partly:
ReplyDelete"I am perhaps more critical and more of a curmudgeon than a lot of people. Most people are very passive, they are like children. They just accept, they don’t discriminate much at all."--R. Crumb.
That could be argued.
ReplyDelete