TTL comments:
But doesn't forgiving imply victimhood?
If you believe in
Instead, you ask: Why did I do this to myself?
Over time it gets easier to answer the question, and, as a result, you don't repeat the incident. Quite liberating, actually.
Corinne Edwards writes: "No, it is not letting them off the hook."
In 100% personal responsibility, you specifically let the other person off the hook. You recognise that you are responsible from the event as it played out to you.
Of course, from the perspective of the other person, the same applies. Whatever happened in their reality is their doing it to themselves. For their own reasons.
Totally right. Forgiveness does imply victimhood. But if you think about, any time you feel bad, upset, sad, angry, this implies victimhood too! And so you have something to "forgive".
"Advanced forgiveness" (an Course In Miracles term) means to change your mind from that of a victim to that of cause. From conflict to peace.
I also agree that real forgiveness does include letting somebody "off the hook". If you still desire to see somebody punished, then you have not fully forgiven.
Update: Ms. Edwards herself visited, commented, and referred to this.
But doesn't forgiving imply victimhood?
ReplyDeleteIf you believe in 100% personal responsibility, like I do, there is never anything to blame nor forgive others for.
Instead, you ask: Why did I do this to myself?
Over time it gets easier to answer the question, and, as a result, you don't repeat the incident. Quite liberating, actually.
Corinne Edwards writes: "No, it is not letting them off the hook."
In 100% personal responsibility, you specifically let the other person off the hook. You recognise that you are responsible for the event as it played out to you.
Of course, from the perspective of the other person, the same applies. Whatever happened in their reality is their doing it to themselves. For their own reasons.
If you believe in 100% personal responsibility, like I do, there is never anything to blame nor forgive others for.
ReplyDeleteSo if I murder someone you love and you feel hatred and or sadness there is nothing to forgive? Or the victim's family? When you sin (and you do, we all have) there is "nothing" to forgive?
When Christ Jesus was hanging on the cross for mankind's salvation and he said, "Father FORGIVE them for they know not what they do."
So you are saying that there is no need to repent (ask forgiveness for?) You are lost TTL and need forgiveness, we all do.
I think a lot of people talk a lot about victimization because our culture has a lot of it going on these days -- there's a veritable "politics" of it. Not that some of the perceived wrongs weren't wrong, or don't deserve redress. But there is nowadays a lot more to be gained by simply pointing out a historical wrong, than there used to be gained. So we're diagnosing it all over the place. Kind of like "stress" -- once it was "discovered," suddenly everyone had it.
ReplyDeleteThat's very true.
ReplyDeleteLike Repressed Childhood Memories too.
Victimhood?
ReplyDeleteHow about forgiving people for not being exactly the way you'd want them, or for doing what you'd wish to but dare not?
"HAH! Who needs measly victimhood, when you've got good old judgementalism?"
What? You haven't heard the latest about Alex and TTL? Darling, have I got a juicy one to tell you! Yatta-yatta, gossip-slander...
I know many people who act as if God was a victim of our sins. Or who believe that to err is human, but to forgive is beyond human capabilities. They don't SAY so of course, they just live it.
I forgive them. Hoping they learn to forgive themselves, which would save them from needing to judge others.
I know this from exhaustive personal experience: our whole religious system is built on @#$%&* guilt. "You are all sinners, you're stuck with it, repent, REPENT, even though you know DAMNED well that even saints keep sinning 70x7 times a day. Thundering typhoons! Fire and brimstone! Blood and sulphur! Sparks and smoke! Shiver me timbers! Maori haka! Aaarrh!"
)8-O
Um... did I miss the part where Jesus forgave, and forgave again, and again, and again?
Corinne Edwards here:
ReplyDeleteWell, first of all, I want to thank you for printing my article so many miles away. I was quite amazed to see it come up on on Google. The Internet is a miracle.
With all repect, will you take a look at a post I made about my program at Cook County Jail in Chicago on ACIM?
These men live in a 8x10 cell with a two inch mattress and a toilet.
Do you think the ACIM teaching that this is all an illusion would play here?
Respectfully, I am including one of my post on the program I conducted for almost three years there.
http://www.personal-growth-with-corinne-edwards.com/jail-time-a-spiritual-program/
It is all about meeting people where they are.
Corinne, thanks for visiting.
ReplyDeleteThe Internet is certainly miraculous. Surely as important for communication as the printing press.
I wonder, what search terms did you use in Google that found my humble little post?
I fully agree, for people in dire circumstances, the Course is perhaps not the top priority. I was speaking from the viewpoint of those of us who have "made it" on the level of the World, and who already have studied the Course and know it's true.
(Note to others, I think Corinne is referring not so much to this post as to a discussion elsewhere.)
Eolake said: "I fully agree, for people in dire circumstances, the Course is perhaps not the top priority."
ReplyDeleteFunny, you would think that for a person locked in a prison cell, some kind of a course in miracles would be just the right ticket! ;-)
"I was speaking from the viewpoint of those of us who have "made it" on the level of the World, and who already have studied the Course and know it's true."
But aren't these prerequisites for studying it rather limiting? You (1) should have "made it" in the society, (2) should already have studied it, and (3) already know it's true. :-/
I think most people seek perennial wisdom for betterment of their life experience. (What other reason can there be?) Most probably would be suspicious of a "miracle course" whose applicability depended on ones social status.
I think I have introduced some confusion by continuing a discusion with Corinne which was happening someplace else.
ReplyDeleteI was not talking about prerequisites for studying ACIM. Anybody can do that.
It also adds confusion that a "miracle" in the ACIM terminology is not something amazing happening in the world.
"A miracle is a shift in perception that removes all obstacles to the presence of love."
see:
http://www.miraclecenter.org/gj1.shtml
But this is really too big a discussion for this space. ACIM is 1400 pages!
Also, by "made it", I didn't mean on the social level, I meant a person who is sufficiently beyond horrible, pressing problems that he has time and attention to spare on philosophical studies.
ReplyDeleteEolake said...
ReplyDelete"I think I have introduced some confusion by continuing a discusion with Corinne which was happening someplace else."
According to the Course, it is ALL happening someplace else. ;-)
I'd love to stay and comment about having "made it", but I think I hear the Don calling. Ciao, arrivederci!
I was going to try the Course, but having half my brain removed isn't covered by my insurance.
ReplyDeleteThis was a clever joke, Anon, so you are forgiven for the sarcasm. :)
ReplyDeleteInsurances are illusions anyway. Just ask anybody who ever needed to make a claim.
Insurances are illusions anyway.
ReplyDeleteNot hardly. They pay in real dollars and cents. Takes them awhile, but they do. You need a reality check dude lol.
Haven't you heard? Reality has been checked, and it's an illusion too. Just a dream our souls need to wake up from. In the meantime, there are things to learn from dreams, that's all they're here for.
ReplyDeleteCents, dollars... when it's all over and done, you take nothing of them with you. Just the wisdom of your eternal soul.
And the Love, of course. It's all about Love.
Before you ask, yes, exotic mushrooms are ALSO an illusion.